Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg The Children, Young People and Education Committee
Dydd Iau, 18 Mawrth 2015 Thursday, 18 March 2015
Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions Ymchwiliad i Waith Athrawon Cyflenwi—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 2 Inquiry into Supply Teaching—Evidence Session 2 Ymchwiliad i Waith Athrawon Cyflenwi—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 3 Inquiry into Supply Teaching—Evidence Session 3
Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.
Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Keith Davies	Llafur Labour
Paul Davies	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (yn dirprwyo ar ran Angela Burns) Welsh Conservatives (substitute for Angela Burns)
Suzy Davies	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Bethan Jenkins	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Ann Jones	Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Labour (Chair of the Committee)
Lynne Neagle	Llafur Labour
David Rees	Llafur Labour
Aled Roberts	Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Simon Thomas	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Elaine Edwards	Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol, Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru General Secretary, UCAC
Owen Hathway	Swyddog Polisi Cymru, Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon Cymru Wales Policy Officer, National Union of Teachers Cymru
Dr Chris Llewelyn	Dirprwy Brif Weithredwr, Cyfarwyddwr Dysgu Gydol Oes, Hamdden a Gwybodaeth, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru Deputy Chief Executive, Director of Lifelong Learning, Leisure and Information, Welsh Local Government Association
Daisy Seabourne	Rheolwr Polisïau Dysgu Gydol Oes, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru Lifelong Learning Policy Manager, Welsh Local Government Association
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Siân Hughes	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Annette Millett	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Gareth Rogers	Clerc Clerk
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:34. The meeting began at 09:34.
Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions
[1] Ann Jones: Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Just the usual housekeeping rules: can I ask, if you’ve got your mobile phones, can you put them on off or on silent, and, if you’re using your iPads, can you make sure they’re on silent as well? Thank you. We’re not expecting the fire alarm to operate. If the fire alarm should go off, we’ll take our instructions from the ushers, but, if we’re able to get out through this side of the building, then the assembly point is at the Pierhead building.
[2] We’ve had apologies from John Griffiths and from Angela Burns. Paul is the substitute for Angela. Paul, I think, is going to take that position whilst Angela’s absence is ongoing. So, I think we’ll note that as well. I think I asked at the first meeting whether anybody wished to declare any interests that they hadn’t already declared in the supply teaching, so, I don’t think—. Unless there are any interests that people haven’t declared—I mean, Aled declared one last week—I think we’re all pretty much the same with those. Okay. That’s great. Thanks.
09:35
Ymchwiliad i Waith Athrawon Cyflenwi—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 2 Inquiry into Supply Teaching—Evidence Session 2
[3] Ann Jones: We’ll move on, then, to an inquiry into supply teaching. Our second evidence session is with NUT Cymru and UCAC. So, could I ask you both just to introduce yourselves for the record? And then we will go into some questions, if that’s okay.
[4] Mr Hathway: Yes. I’m Owen Hathway, the NUT Cymru policy officer.
[5] Ms Edwards: And I’m Elaine Edwards, UCAC general secretary—ysgrifennydd cyffredinol UCAC.
[6] Ann Jones: Okay. Thanks very much. We’ve had your written evidence as well, so, thank you for that. Members will have seen that. We’ve got four areas we want to explore with you: the use of supply teaching, pupil outcomes, continuous professional development and performance management, and then supply agencies. So, those are the four areas that we’re going to try to focus on. We’re going to try to do that one timely. It never works like that, but we will try. The first set, then, on the use of supply teachers: Aled, do you want to start us off?
[7] Aled Roberts: A gaf i ofyn i’r NUT yn y lle cyntaf? Mae’ch tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig chi yn dweud bod yna dystiolaeth o absenoldeb athrawon oherwydd salwch mewn nifer o ysgolion, ac eto roedd yna dystiolaeth yr wythnos diwethaf gan Estyn yn beirniadu trefniadau rheoli absenoldeb o fewn ysgolion. Roedden nhw’n dweud nad oedd unrhyw fath drafod ar ôl i’r athrawon ddod yn ôl, ac felly nad oedd llawer o dystiolaeth ynglŷn â pham roedd yna lefelau mor uchel o absenoldeb. Felly, rwyf jest yn gofyn i chi a oes gennych dystiolaeth sydd, i ryw raddau, yn dadansoddi beth rydych wedi’i roi i lawr yn eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig, achos mae Estyn yn dweud, i ryw raddau, nad yw’r rhesymau dros absenoldeb yn glir iawn oherwydd diffyg trefniadau.		Aled Roberts: Can I ask the NUT in the first place? Your written evidence says that there is evidence of teacher absence in a number of schools due to sickness, and yet there was evidence last week from Estyn criticising the absence management arrangements within schools. They said that there was no discussion after the teachers returned, and therefore there wasn’t much evidence as to why there were such high levels of absence. So, I’m just asking you whether you have any evidence that analyses to some degree what you have included in your written evidence, because Estyn says that, to some extent, the reasons for absence are not very clear due to the lack of arrangements.
[8] Mr Hathway: Rwy’n mynd i ateb yn Saesneg.		Mr Hathway: I’ll respond in English.
[9] I think that you’re right to say that when someone goes off they don’t necessarily have that discussion when they come back to school—other than the explanation, obviously. I think what I’m referring to specifically in the evidence is increasing and significant sickness due to stress-related mental health issues. We’ve done some freedom of information work in the past that has shown the number of days that teachers have lost due to stress-related mental health issues. I think that you’re right and Estyn are right that we don’t necessarily underpin why that is happening. We would argue anecdotally, and the evidence that we get from members is, that it’s to do with how they’re managed by school leaders when problems arise, issues around workloads, and so on and so forth. But I certainly feel that when those individuals go back into school they don’t necessarily have the underpinning causes for that illness resolved. That can end up leading to them going back off, or for the period that they are off ill being a longer extended period than it necessarily should be. In general terms, in terms of sickness, we know that it is higher in Wales than it is in England. The underpinning reason for that I don’t think anyone can actually significantly say as yet, and perhaps that’s something that the committee would like to dig into deeper at a further stage. But I’d argue that one of the reasons, potentially, is that the underfunding here compared to England, one way of addressing that is to work teachers longer and harder to ensure that the same amount of work is being done. That does lead to illnesses further down the line.
[10] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu bod yna broblem ymarferol mewn ysgolion oherwydd y patrwm gwaith, sydd yn ei gwneud hi’n anodd i bobl gynnal cyfarfodydd dychwelyd i’r gwaith, sydd yn ddisgwyliedig pan ydych mewn cyflogaeth. Ni fyddwn yn caniatáu i berson ddod yn ôl i’r gwaith gyda fi yn dilyn absenoldeb heb wneud yn siŵr fy mod i’n cael cyfarfod gyda nhw—efallai y byddai hynny ar eu diwrnod cyntaf yn ôl yn y gwaith—i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw’n iawn a bod y broblem wedi’i datrys neu i weld a oes angen unrhyw addasiadau rhesymol arnyn nhw yn y gwaith a fyddai’n help iddyn nhw allu parhau gyda ni yn y gwaith wrth iddyn nhw, efallai, barhau i wella neu, os yw’r broblem wedi’i datrys, eu bod nhw’n iawn i fynd ymlaen. Y gwirionedd, mewn sefyllfa ysgol, yw bod gan y rheolwr llinell bob amser amserlen ddysgu, os mai nad y pennaeth yw’r rheolwr llinell—yn aml, mae ganddyn nhw amserlen ddysgu hefyd—ac mae’r athro yn dychwelyd ar ddiwrnod pan mae ganddo’i amserlen ddysgu o’i flaen. Felly, nid yw’r amser i ganiatáu ar gyfer cyfarfod a sgwrs cyn iddyn nhw hyd yn oed fynd yn ôl at y gwaith yn digwydd yn arferol, heblaw mewn cyfnodau o absenoldeb hir iawn. Ar yr adegau hynny, mae’r awdurdod lleol, efallai, wedi bod yn cefnogi ac mae adnoddau dynol wedi bod i mewn, ac mae cyfarfodydd ffurfiol iawn wedi bod yn digwydd, gyda pherson undeb yn bresennol hefyd.		Ms Edwards: I believe that there is a practical problem in schools because of the work pattern, which makes it difficult for people to hold return-to-work meetings, which is expected when you’re in employment. I would not allow a person to return to work with me following an absence without ensuring that I had a meeting with them—it might be on their first day back in work—to make sure that they’re fine and that the problem has been resolved or to see whether we need to make any reasonable adjustments in the workplace to assist them to continue in their employment with us as they, perhaps, continue to recuperate or, if the problem has been resolved, that they’re fine to go forward. The fact of the matter is that, in a school setting, the line manager has always got a teaching timetable, unless the line manager is the headteacher—often, they have a teaching timetable as well—and the teacher returns on a day when he or she has a teaching timetable too. So, finding the time for a meeting and a conversation before they return to the work does not usually happen, unless it was after a very lengthy period of absence. In those cases, the local authority has, perhaps, been providing support and human resources have been involved, and very formal meetings would have been taking place, with a union representative being present too.
[11] Oherwydd, efallai, nad yw ysgolion yn gweithredu’r system o gyfweliadau dychwelyd i’r gwaith, mae’n anodd sicrhau bod y broblem wedi’i datrys a beth oedd y broblem. Rydym ni o’r farn, fel yr NUT, fod lefelau straen yn yr ysgolion ar hyn o bryd yn creu problemau iechyd meddwl sydd ddim yn cael eu datrys a sydd ddim yn cael cefnogaeth. Mae hynny, ynddo’i hun, yn creu problemau inni ar gyfer y dyfodol, gan nad ydym ni, felly, yn rhoi’r gefnogaeth i’n hathrawon ni. Wedyn, yn sgil hynny, efallai fod absenoldeb a allai fod wedi bod yn fyr dymor a dyna ni, yn datblygu i fod yn rhywbeth sy’n absenoldeb nawr ac eto yn y dyfodol ac eto yn y dyfodol.		Because some schools, perhaps, do not operate a system of return-to-work interviews, it is difficult to ascertain whether the problem has been resolved and what the problem was. We are of the view, as is the NUT, that stress levels in schools at present are causing mental health issues that are not being resolved and not being supported. That, in itself, is creating problems for us for the future, because we are not, therefore, giving our teachers the support they require. As a result, an absence that could have been short-term and then resolved might develop into an absence that is repeated time and again in the future.
[12] Aled Roberts: Ond, os ydych chi’n bennaeth adran, ro’n i’n meddwl bod gennych chi amser pan nad oes gennych chi gyfrifoldebau dysgu—mae hyn i drefnu bod eich adran chi yn cyflawni. Byddwn i’n meddwl y byddai cyfweliad dychwelyd yn rhan o wneud yn siŵr bod eich adran chi yn perfformio.		Aled Roberts: But, if you are a department head, I thought that you had time when you don’t have teaching responsibilities, but to ensure that your department is achieving. I would have thought that return-to-work interviews would play a part in ensuring that your department was performing.
[13] Ms Edwards: Nid yw e, o reidrwydd. Dywedwch eich bod chi’n dychwelyd i’r gwaith heddiw, efallai fod gan eich pennaeth adran chi ddiwrnod cyfan o ddysgu heddiw.		Ms Edwards: They do not, necessarily. Say that you returned to work today, your head of department might have a full day of teaching today.
[14] Aled Roberts: Mae hynny yr un fath ym mhob diwydiant, onid yw?		Aled Roberts: That is the same in all industries, isn’t it?
[15] Ms Edwards: Ond, os ydych chi’n gweithio mewn swyddfa, fe allwch chi ddweud, ‘Reit, rwy’n gadael y gwaith yma am nawr ac rwy’n mynd i gyfweld y person sy’n dod yn  ôl i’r gwaith; dyna’r flaenoriaeth heddiw’. Nid ydych yn gallu gwneud hynny yn yr ysgol, os nad oes rhywun yn cyflenwi ar gyfer y wers rydych i fod yn ei dysgu. Felly, mae’r pethau ymarferol hyn, oherwydd amserlen ysgol, yn bethau, weithiau, sy’n ymddangos fel pethau sy’n haws i beidio â’u gwneud, er bod peidio â buddsoddi yn y pethau yna yn syth yn dod â chost yn y dyfodol.		Ms Edwards: But, if you are working in an office, you can say, ‘Right, I’m going to put this work to one side now and I’m going to interview the person who’s just returned to work; that’s the priority today.’ You can’t do that in a school, unless you have a supply teacher for the lesson that you’re meant to be teaching. So, these practical issues, because of the school timetable, are things that sometimes appear to be the easiest things not to do, although not investing in these things straight way can bring additional costs in the future.
[16] Aled Roberts: Pam mae cymaint o anghysondeb ynghylch absenoldeb athrawon o sir i sir yng Nghymru? Mae rhai siroedd lle mae nifer y dyddiau sy’n cael eu colli, dywedwch, chwarter y cyfanswm mewn siroedd eraill. Pam mae hynny’n digwydd, os ydym yn sôn am yr un gyfundrefn addysg a’r un pwysau gwaith ar athrawon?		Aled Roberts: Why is there such inconsistency in terms of teacher absence from county to county in Wales? In some counties, the number of lost days is, say, a quarter of the number in other counties. Why is that happening, if we are talking about the same education regime and the same pressure of work on teachers?
[17] Ms Edwards: Nid wyf yn gwybod a oes digon o dystiolaeth gennym ni o bam mae hynny’n digwydd. Wrth gwrs, bydd sefyllfaoedd unigolion yn wahanol i’w gilydd, yn naturiol. Y gwirionedd hefyd yw bod sut mae ysgolion yn ymdrin â llwyth gwaith yn wahanol, ac mae angen, byddwn i’n meddwl, er mwyn deall hynny i gyd, mwy o dystiolaeth neu ymchwil, onid oes?		Ms Edwards: I don’t know whether we have sufficient evidence as to why that happens. Of course, the situation of individuals will be different, of course. The fact of the matter also is that the way that schools deal with workload is different, and in order to understand all of that, I would have thought that we needed more evidence or research.
[18] Os oes gennych chi ffordd—. Os yw awdurdod lleol yn dodi pwysau enfawr ar benaethiaid, mae perygl bod y pwysau yna yn cael ei drosglwyddo wedyn i bobl eraill ar y staff. Mae sut mae pobl yn ymdrin â llwyth gwaith a phwysau yn mynd i amrywio nid yn unig o awdurdod lleol i awdurdod lleol, ond o sefydliad unigol i sefydliad unigol.		If you have a way—. If a local authority is placing huge pressure on headteachers, there is a danger that that pressure is then transferred to other people on the staff. How people deal with workload and stress will vary not only from one local authority to the next, but from one institution to the next.
[19] Mr Hathway: As Elaine said, I don’t think there’s a definitive answer from the evidence we’ve got, but I think it’s a fair point to say that how different local authorities support and hold schools to account varies, and I think that has an impact. More recently, how different regional consortia intervene and investigate into schools, in comparison to others, will have an impact on the sort of workloads and the sort of pressures put on those schools. Again, as Elaine says, the different challenges from those different communities, as subtle as they may be, will have an impact, I think, on some of those issues that can drive sickness.
09:45
[20] Ann Jones: David, you’ve got a point just on this point, and then I’ll come back to you, Aled.
[21] David Rees: Just a quick point, Chair, thanks. You’ve tried to defend the reasoning, to an extent, as to the pressures on people so as not to undertake a return to work, but there are other public sectors where the individual coming back to work and the individual who would need that interview are both involved in front-line activities. They manage it and they require it, so surely schools should be doing it. There should be no excuse.
[22] Ms Edwards: Well, I agree with you. I totally agree with you.
[23] Rwy’n credu ei bod yn hawl i’r unigolyn. Mae yna gyfrifoldeb gofal gan yr ysgol a’r awdurdod lleol am y bobl sy’n cael eu cyflogi yn yr ysgolion, ac rwy’n teimlo, ac fel undeb rydym yn teimlo, y dylai hynny fod yn flaenoriaeth. Mae yna berygl, gyda’r pwysau sydd ar hyn o bryd, a hefyd y gost sydd yn ymwneud â phethau fel cyflenwi a’r problemau cyllido sydd ar hyn o bryd, nad yw rhai ysgolion yn gweithredu popeth sy’n statudol ac sy’n ddisgwyliedig ohonyn nhw. Ac nid yw hynny o fudd i’r staff.		I think it’s an individual’s right. The school and local authority have a duty of care for the people who are being employed in the schools, and I feel, and as a union we feel, that that should be a priority. There is a danger, with the current pressure, and also the cost involved with things like cover and the current funding problems, that some schools do not implement everything that is statutory and expected of them. And that is not of benefit to the staff.
[24] Hefyd, i bigo lan ar un peth yr oeddech yn ei ddweud yn y fan hyn—ac mae’n fater gwahanol ond cysylltiedig—mewn holiadur llwyth gwaith a wnaethom ni yn ystod yr haf y llynedd, sef y dystiolaeth fwyaf diweddar sydd gyda ni, roedd 91 y cant o’r bobl a oedd yn ymateb yn dweud bod ganddyn nhw lwyth gwaith gormodol. Roedd nifer o’r rhai a oedd wedi ymateb yn barod wedi dychwelyd cyfrifoldebau a thorri oriau—nid oherwydd eu bod, o reidrwydd, yn moyn swydd ran amser, ond oherwydd eu bod nhw’n moyn swydd a oedd yn llawn amser ac a fyddai’n caniatáu iddyn nhw gael amser yn y nos a’r penwythnos gyda’r teulu. Felly, roedden nhw’n rhoi lan swydd lawn amser er mwyn gallu dweud, ‘Mae cydbwysedd bywyd a gwaith gyda fi.’ Nawr, mae hynny’n arwydd o ddifrifoldeb y pwysau y mae pobl yn ei deimlo, sy’n arwain at y problemau iechyd meddwl a’r straen yr oedd Owen yn sôn amdanynt.		Also, to pick up on something that you said here—and it’s a different issue but a related one—in a workload survey that we undertook last summer, which is the most recent evidence we have, 91 per cent of the respondents said that their workload was excessive. A number of those who responded had already relinquished some responsibilities and cut back their hours, and not because they necessarily wanted a part-time post, but because they wanted a post that would be full time and would allow them to have time off in the evenings and at the weekends with their family. So, they were giving up a full-time job in order to be able to say, ‘I have a work-life balance.’ Now, that is a sign of the seriousness of the pressure that people are under, which leads to the mental health problems and the stress that Owen alluded to.
[25] Aled Roberts: A gaf i jest bwyso arnoch chi neu eich herio chi ar un pwynt arall sy’n cael ei wneud yn y dystiolaeth? Rydych chi’n cymharu’r defnydd sydd yn cael ei wneud o gymorthyddion ac athrawon cyflenwi, ond mae’r dystiolaeth rydym ni wedi’i derbyn gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, a hefyd gan Estyn, yn awgrymu mai diffyg trefniadau  mewn ysgolion a’r gwahaniaeth o ran arweinyddiaeth mewn ysgolion ydy prif nodweddion rhai o’r diffygion y maen nhw wedi’u gweld. Bydd athrawon cyflenwi neu gymorthyddion dosbarth mewn rhai ysgolion yn cael eu paratoi yn gyflawn—byddant yn cael union esboniad o ba fath o ddosbarth sy’n cael ei gyflwyno iddyn nhw a bydd gwaith yn cael ei baratoi ar eu cyfer—ond mewn mannau eraill nid oes yna baratoi. Bydd y person, boed yn gymhorthydd neu’n athro, yn cael ei roi o flaen y dosbarth heb ddim gwybodaeth. Rydym ni wedi derbyn tystiolaeth gan blant yn awgrymu bod llawer iawn o’r gwersi yn ddim mwy na chyflawni wordsearch—ac mae hynny os ydyn nhw’n athro, athrawes neu’n gymhorthwr.		Aled Roberts: May I just press or challenge you on one of the points that is made in the evidence? You compare the use made of assistants and supply teachers, but the evidence that we’ve received from the Wales Audit Office, and also from Estyn, suggests that it is a lack of organisation within schools and the difference between the leadership in schools are the main features of some of the deficiencies that they’ve witnessed. Supply teachers or classroom assistants in some schools are prepared fully—they are given an exact explanation of what kind of class that’s being introduced to them, and work is prepared for them—but, in others, there is no preparation. The person, whether an assistant or a teacher, will be placed before the class without any information. We’ve received evidence from children that suggests that very many of the lessons are nothing more than just completing wordsearches—and that is whether they are a teacher or an assistant.
[26] Felly, eto, pa dystiolaeth sydd gennych chi i awgrymu mai’r broblem o ran cyflenwi ydy’r defnydd o gymorthyddion yn hytrach na’r diffyg paratoi yma o fewn ein cyfundrefn addysg ni, o ystyried bod 10 y cant o’n plant ni erbyn hyn yn derbyn gwersi gan staff cyflenwi?		So, once again, what evidence do you have to suggest that the problem as regards supply is the use of assistants rather than the lack of preparation within our education system, when you consider that 10 per cent of our children receive their teaching from supply teachers?
[27] Ms Edwards: Nid wy’n meddwl ein bod ni erioed wedi dweud taw dyna’n union yw’r broblem. Mae diffyg paratoi yn broblem. Mae rhai athrawon cyflenwi yn cyrraedd yr ysgol ac mae wedi bod yn ras i drio ffeindio rhywun. Maen nhw’n cyrraedd ar y bore y mae’r ysgol yn ffeindio bod rhywun yn methu bod yn yr ysgol. Maen nhw’n cyrraedd yr ysgol ac nid oes neb yn gallu dweud llawer mwy iddyn nhw na, ‘Dyma dy amserlen di am y dydd a dyma le ti’n mynd’ ac ati. Os yw’r athro yn gyfarwydd â’r ysgol yn barod—maen nhw’n gyfawrydd â threfn yr ysgol, maen nhw efallai wedi dod ar draws y plant o’r blaen, maen nhw’n gyfarwydd, o bosibl, â’r adran y maen nhw’n mynd i fod yn dysgu ynddi, os taw pwnc y maen nhw’n ei ddysgu, neu’r dosbarth oedran y maen nhw’n mynd i fod yn ei ddysgu—mae hynny i gyd yn helpu’r sefydlogrwydd. Ond, rydym ni o’r farn, pe bai pob ysgol â phecyn i’w roi mas i athro cyflenwi sy’n newydd i’r ysgol—sydd yn cynnwys pethau fel copi o’r polisi ymddygiad, y polisi marcio ac asesu, trefniadau dyddiol yr ysgol, llinellau atebolrwydd, pwy rydych yn troi ato os ydych chi’n wynebu problem pan fyddwch chi yn yr ysgol, braslun byr o bethau hanfodol iechyd a diogelwch—byddai hynny’n gefnogaeth i’r athro cyflenwi.		Ms Edwards: I don’t think we’ve ever said that that is specifically the problem. A lack of preparation is a problem. Some supply teachers arrive at a school and it’s been a rush to try to find someone. They arrive on the morning that the school finds that someone is unable to be present. They arrive at the school and nobody can tell them much more than, ‘This is your schedule for the day and this is where you’re going’ and so on. If the teacher is already familiar with the school—they are familiar with the school’s regime, they have possibly met the children before, they are possibly familiar with the department that they’re going to be teaching in, if they’re a subject teacher, or the particular age group they’re going to be teaching—all that helps in terms of stability. But, we believe that, if every school had a package to give out to a supply teacher who is new to the school—which includes things such as the behaviour policy, the assessment and marking policy, the school’s day-to-day regime, lines of accountability, who to turn to if you have a problem when you’re at the school, a quick overview of the essential information regarding health and safety—that would support the supply teacher.
[28] A hefyd, yr arfer gorau fyddai bod gan ysgolion bethau sydd wedi eu paratoi, sy’n gallu cael eu defnyddio mewn argyfwng. Ond, pan mae yna athro yn mynd i fod yn absennol am gyfnod hir, ac mae’r ysgol yn gwybod hynny, mae yna gyfle i gael yr athro a fydd yn dod mewn i gyflenwi i drafod â’r athro sy’n mynd i fod yn absennol, ac yn mynd, felly, bron, i gyd-gynllunio â’i gilydd—un yn dweud, ‘Dyma ble fyddaf i’n disgwyl y byddaf wedi ei gyrraedd erbyn fy mod yn mynd bant ar gyfnod mamolaeth, felly byddaf yn moyn i’r rhan yma o’r cwrs yn dy ddwylo di.’		And also, the best practice would be that schools have prepared materials that can be used in an emergency. But, when a teacher is going to be absent for a prolonged period of time, and the school knows that, then there is an opportunity to have the supply teacher in to discuss with the teacher who is going to be absent, and maybe, nearly, to plan together—one saying, ‘This is the point I expect to have reached by the time I go off on maternity leave, so I will want this part of the course to be in your hands.’
[29] Ac mae hynny yn digwydd yn yr arfer gorau; rwy’n credu ein bod wedi cyfeirio at enghreifftiau o’r fath yn ein tystiolaeth ni. Ond, yn anffodus, mae’n brofiad i rai o’n haelodau ni eu bod yn cyrraedd ysgol ac yn teimlo’n hollol ynysig, ac nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol.		And that does happen in terms of best practice; I think we have referred to such examples in our evidence. But, unfortunately, it is the experience of some of our members that they arrive at a school and feel completely isolated, and that is not acceptable.
[30] Ann Jones: Okay, Aled? Fine. Thanks. Shall we move on to pupil outcomes? Suzy.
[31] Suzy Davies: Thank you very much. We’ve had evidence that there should be no notable income on pupil outcomes if all that best practice is in place, and particularly if teachers are familiar with the school and the processes. If that’s the ideal, and the fact that there is a series of supply teachers doesn’t reach that ideal, would you be surprised to hear that we had some evidence from the survey that was done by the Assembly staff itself that a significant number of pupils quite liked it when they had a different teacher? Does that surprise you?
[32] Mr Hathway: I don’t think it would surprise me. I think I would have to see the survey to be fully aware of the rationale behind it.
[33] Suzy Davies: I appreciate that.
[34] Ann Jones: It is a public document, so it will be on the web.
[35] Mr Hathway: Great. I imagine there’s some pupils who might like the idea of a supply teacher, because they think that it gives them a bit more leeway in terms of how they behave in class. I imagine, as well, that, every now and again, the opportunity to see someone new in front of their class—a new technique of teaching—is something that can inspire them, and I think that a lot of teachers actually do bring in people from outside as part of their lesson plans, actually, to try to deliver certain parts of the curriculum. So, I think that, actually, that idea of refreshing the individuals who lead in a class are contributing to it is something that teachers in a day-to-day post would recognise.
[36] But, when we talk about this utopia of everything being the same if a new supply teacher comes in, I think the problem we’ve got is that, on day 1, when an individual qualifies, they’re on the same level as a usual teacher in terms of their training, their expertise, their qualifications. However, for every day they’re in the supply system, they’re not getting access to CPD, they’re falling further and further behind those who are in school and are regularly interacting with the new initiatives and the new policies the Welsh Government bring out—those that do get CPD in a day-to-day position, in full-time employment. And so, the problem you’ve got is that there’s a divergence then between the ability of a supply teacher to keep up to speed with what’s happening, because of the restrictive nature of working in supply, in terms of accessing the new policies and professional development, compared to those who are in a class. I think that’s the concern we raise when we’re talking about what we would like to see in terms of the ideal and what actually the reality is.
[37] Suzy Davies: I suppose it would be a logical conclusion, wouldn’t it, that, if you had a supply teacher who hadn’t had professional development, there is a likelihood that the pupils working with that teacher wouldn’t be having the most up-to-date engagement with that teacher. Both of you, I think, have said that it’s important that teachers have an opportunity to build up a relationship with their pupils. With longer term supply teachers, that’s possible, isn’t it? I think you were talking about it a little bit, Elaine. You also said, in UCAC evidence, that it’s almost impossible to tell quite what the outcome is on a pupil’s attainment if they’re exposed to quite a lot of supply teachers. Can you sort of square that circle for me a little bit there? Either there’s evidence that a lot of supply teaching isn’t good for kids, or it doesn’t matter. Which one is it?
[38] Ms Edwards: Mae yna wahaniaeth, onid oes e, rhwng cael, efallai, rhywun yn cyflenwi tra bo’ch athro chi’n absennol, p’un ai am dair wythnos, mis, chwe mis neu flwyddyn a chael un athro cyflenwi am ddau ddiwrnod, athro cyflenwi arall am dri diwrnod ac athro cyflenwi arall am dri diwrnod, a bod y patrwm fel yna am chwe mis i flwyddyn? Wedi hynny, pwy sydd wir yn atebol am eich deilliannau chi a phwy sydd wir yn atebol am gyflawni gofynion y cwrs? Os ydym ni’n meddwl yn nhermau cynradd neu uwchradd, ac arholiadau allanol neu asesu ar gyfer dysgu, wedyn pwy yn wir sydd yn atebol a phwy sydd yn gwneud y mwyafrif o’r gwaith yna? Felly, mae yna wahaniaeth rhwng cael rhywun sefydlog gyda chi, p’un ai am gyfnod o bythefnos neu flwyddyn, a chael rhywun a newid, a newid, a newid, a newid, achos eich bod chi’n ffaelu dala rhywun yn yr ysgol, achos eu bod nhw wedi ymrwymo, efallai, i fynd i ysgolion eraill. Mae yna wahaniaeth yna.		Ms Edwards: There is a difference, isn’t there, between, maybe, getting a supply teacher when your teacher is absent, whether that is for three weeks, six months or a year, and having one teacher for two days, another supply teacher for three days and another for three days, and having that pattern for six months to a year? Then, who is truly accountable for your outcomes and for achieving the course’s requirements? Whether we’re thinking in terms of primary or secondary, or external examinations or assessments, then, who is truly accountable and who undertakes the majority of that work? So, there is a difference between having someone with you on a regular basis, whether it’s for two weeks or a year, and having someone and then changing and changing and changing because you can’t hang on to someone in the school, maybe because they’re committed to going to other schools. There is a difference there.
[39] O ran y berthynas, rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig ac mae e’n newid i ddisgyblion weithiau i gael rhywun ffres, gwahanol ac ati. Mae’n rhaid inni gofio, hefyd, fod llawer o wahanol resymau pam mae pobl yn cyflenwi. Mae rhai pobl yn cyflenwi achos eu bod nhw’n chwilio am swydd barhaol. Yn ôl ffigurau diweddaraf y cyngor addysgu, rwy’n credu, mae 25 y cant o athrawon cyflenwi o dan 30 oed; maen nhw’n ifanc yn y proffesiwn. Mae dros 8 y cant ohonyn nhw o dan 25, felly, nid ydyn nhw wedi cael y cyfle, fwy na thebyg, i orffen eu cyfnodau ymsefydlu, ac maen nhw’n chwilio am swydd. Mae yna berygl gennym yn fanna ein bod wedi buddsoddi yn eu hyfforddi nhw, ac os nad ydyn nhw’n mynd i ffeindio swydd barhaol cyn bo hir, byddan nhw’n chwilio am rywbeth arall.		In terms of the relationship, I think it is important and sometimes, it is a change for pupils to have someone new. But we must also remember that there are many different reasons why people are supply teachers. Some people do it because they are looking for a permanent post. According to the most recent figures from the teaching council, I think, 25 per cent of supply teachers are under 30 years old; they are young in the profession. More than 8 per cent of them are under 25, so they haven’t had an opportunity, probably, to finish their induction period and they are looking for a job. There’s a danger there that we have invested in their training, but if they don’t find a permanent post soon, they will start looking for something else.
[40] Ar y pegwn arall, mae yna 25 y cant hefyd gyda ni sydd dros 55: pobl sydd wedi ymddeol yn gynnar am ryw reswm neu wedi torri’u horiau ac efallai’n llenwi lan gyda gwaith cyflenwi. Wedyn, mae’r grŵp yn y canol gyda ni. Felly, mae yna bobl sydd yn moyn dechrau eu gyrfa, mae rhai pobl sydd ar ddiwedd eu gyrfa a’n dal i deimlo eu bod nhw’n gallu gwneud cyfraniad am gyfnod, ac mae pobl sydd gyda ni sydd wedi cymryd toriad gyrfa, efallai i fagu plant, ac yn dymuno, rywbryd, ddychwelyd i’r proffesiwn. Efallai eu bod nhw’n moyn cadw eu llaw i mewn trwy wneud ychydig bach o gyflenwi, neu maen nhw yn chwilio am swydd barhaol er mwyn dod nôl.		At the other end of the scale, 25 per cent of supply teachers are aged over 55: people who have retired early for some reason or who have reduced their hours and are maybe topping up with supply work. Then, we have the group in the middle. So, these are people who, maybe, want to start their career, there are some people who are at the end of their career and still feel that they can make a contribution for a period of time, and we have people who have had a career break, maybe to bring up a family, and who wish, at some point, to return to the profession. Maybe they just want to keep their hand in by doing a bit of supply work, or they’re actually looking for a permanent post in order to return to work.
[41] Suzy Davies: But that’s very much about the teachers. I’m wondering, unless we have disaggregated data on this about, perhaps, why people are in supply teaching, the length of time that they are engaged in supply teaching, whether it’s long term and you can build up the relationships or whether it’s this little bit here, little bit there kind of approach, we’re not really going to be able to assess the effect on pupil outcome.
[42] Ms Edwards: Na, ond un peth rŷm ni yn gallu ei wneud yw trio mynd i’r afael â’r gefnogaeth a’r hyfforddiant maen nhw’n eu cael—y math o gefnogaeth maen nhw’n ei chael ym mhob ysgol pan maen nhw’n mynd yno fel athrawon cyflenwi, a’r math o gefnogaeth sydd ar gael iddyn nhw. A oes yna arlwy o gyrsiau iddyn nhw? A oes yna fynediad gyda nhw i fynd i ysgol leol i gael hyfforddiant pan mae’r ysgol honno yn cael hyfforddiant? Ar hyn o bryd, o’n profiad ni, mae pobl yn dweud wrthym ni eu bod nhw’n chwilio am gyrsiau eu hunain ac yn talu amdanyn nhw. Mae’r ysgolion lle maen nhw’n cyflenwi’n hirdymor yn caniatáu iddyn nhw fynd ar eu cyrsiau hyfforddiant mewn swydd nhw, os yw’r ysgol yn fodlon talu am ddiwrnod o waith, neu weithiau’n dweud, ‘Gallan nhw ddod, ond ni ffaelu’ch talu chi’.		Ms Edwards: No, but one thing we can do is try and address the support and training that they receive—the kind of support that they receive in every school when they go there as a supply teacher, and the kind of support that’s available to them. Is there a menu of courses available to them? Do they have access to a local school to have training when there is training delivered at that school? At present, in our experience, people tell us that they search for courses themselves and pay for them themselves. The schools that are involved in long-term supply allow them to go on their in-service training courses, if the school is willing to pay for a day’s salary, or sometimes, they might say, ‘You can come along to the training, but we can’t pay you’.
[43] Suzy Davies: Could I just ask in there, quickly, do you think schools generally look at the investment in training from the point of view of their pupils, saying, ‘Our pupils will do better if our supply teachers are better trained’? Do you get a sense that school leaders look at it from that point of view ever?
10:00
[44] Mr Hathway: I think that possibly they do, but ultimately, when it comes down to finance, a lot of school leaders will think, ‘Do I want to spend money training a supply teacher who will go elsewhere?’ Not that they don’t see that that’s of benefit to them or of benefit to the education system generally, but when they’ve struggled to find the finance to train their own staff, then I think they’re probably more focused on finding CPD opportunities for the complement of staff they have on a permanent basis, rather than those coming in as supply.
[45] Ms Edwards: Ac mae gwahaniaeth, onid oes e? Os bydd athro gyda nhw am flwyddyn achos bod rhywun bant am flwyddyn, efallai eu bod nhw’n gweld ‘Byddwn ni’n gweld ffrwyth yr hyfforddiant yna, ac rŷm ni’n hyfforddi’n staff ni ar y materion hyn beth bynnag, ac maen nhw’n gallu bod yn rhan o hynny’. Ond un peth sydd yn anodd i ysgolion ar hyn o bryd oherwydd y sefyllfa cyllido, efallai, yw cael gorolwg o gyfrifoldeb am addysgu yng Nghymru, yn hytrach na dim ond addysgu yn eu hysgolion eu hunain—i gael yr ymdeimlad yna.		Ms Edwards: And there is a difference, isn’t there? If a teacher is with them for a year because someone is away for a year, perhaps they would think, ‘We’ll see the fruit of that training, and we’re training our staff on these issues in any case, so they can be a part of that’. But one thing that is difficult for schools at present because of the funding situation, perhaps, is having an overview of the responsibility for teaching in Wales, rather than only for the teaching in their own schools—to have a feel for that.
[46] Ann Jones: Aled wants a point on this before I come back to you, and then David, then I’ll come back to you, Suzy.
[47] Suzy Davies: Okay, I’ve got one more question.
[48] Ann Jones: So, Aled, then David, then we’ll come back to Suzy.
[49] Aled Roberts: Wrth inni sôn am gyfrifoldeb, ble mae cyfrifoldeb yr aelodau hynny o’ch proffesiwn chi sydd yn brifathrawon ac yn aelodau o’r uwch-dîm reoli o ran dadansoddi beth oedd Suzy yn ei ddweud rŵan ynglŷn ag effaith athrawon cyflenwi ar gyrhaeddiad plant? A ydyn nhw’n dadansoddi’r effaith yna? A ydyn nhw’n gofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn ag a yw athro neu athrawes benodol yn cael effaith? A oes yna broblem o ran sgiliau dysgu? A oes yna broblem o ran ymddygiad o fewn y dosbarth? A oes yna unrhyw fath o ddadansoddi yn cael ei wneud ar lefel ysgol, neu ydy’r ysgol jest yn dweud, ‘O, mater i’r gyfundrefn addysg ydy hwn a mater i Lywodraeth Cymru’?		Aled Roberts: As we are talking about responsibility, where is the responsibility of those members of your profession who are headteachers and members of the senior management team from the point of view of analysing what Suzy was just saying about the impact of supply teachers on children’s attainment? Do they analyse that impact at all? Do they ask whether a specific teacher is having an impact, whether there is a problem from the point of view of teaching skills or in terms of behaviour and conduct within the classroom? Is any analysis carried out at a school level, or does the school just say, ‘Oh, that’s a matter for the education system and a matter for Welsh Government’?
[50] Ms Edwards: Na, rwy’n credu, yn y mwyafrif o ysgolion, y byddai pobl yn dod yn ymwybodol os oedd problemau yn weddol gynnar. Y broblem sydd gyda chi yn y system addysg—mae’n wahanol, efallai, i y mwyafrif o swyddi—yw bod athro yn hala’r rhan fwyaf o’r dydd, yn aml y diwrnod cyfan, ar eu pennau eu hunain gyda phlant, a dim ond pan fydd rhywun mewn yn arsylwi y maen nhw’n teimlo eu bod nhw’n cael, efallai, gefnogaeth neu yn mynd i gael barn ar eu gwaith nhw.		Ms Edwards: No, I believe that, in the majority of schools, people would become aware if there were any problems at quite an early stage. The problem that you have in the education system—which is, perhaps, different to most jobs—is that a teacher spends most of the day, very often the whole day, on his or her own with children, and it’s only when someone is there, observing, that they feel that they are perhaps getting support or are going to hear an opinion on their work.
[51] Aled Roberts: Faint o arsylwi o athrawon cyflenwi sy’n cymryd lle?		Aled Roberts: How much observation of supply teachers takes place?
[52] Ms Edwards: Byddai fwy na thebyg ond yn digwydd pe bai rhywun yna yn yr hirdymor ac felly bod yr athro wedi dod yn rhan o’r gyfundrefn rheoli perfformiad yn yr ysgol. Os oes rhywun i mewn o ddydd i ddydd, yn dod i mewn am ddiwrnod, mae’n annhebygol y bydd e’n digwydd—os nad ydynt yn gwneud rhyw fath o team teaching. Ond rwy’n credu, os ydych chi’n dysgu drws nesaf i rywun ac rŷch chi’n gallu clywed bod dosbarth yn mynd yn anystywallt iawn, mae’n codi cwestiynau ac mae rhywun yn mynd i fynd i ymchwilio a gweld a oes yna broblem, os oes yna gefnogaeth, ac ati. Hefyd, bydd pwy bynnag sy’n gyfrifol am adran, neu’n gyfrifol am oedran mewn ysgol gynradd, er enghraifft, yn dymuno sicrhau bod y plant yn cael chwarae teg, bod eich pwnc yn cael chwarae teg, bod yr adran yn cael chwarae teg, ac felly yn cadw llygaid ar y sefyllfa ac ar unrhyw un sy’n dod i mewn i gyflenwi, yn enwedig am gyfnod o fwy nag ychydig ddiwrnodau, i weld a oes problemau yn mynd i ddod yn yr hirdymor neu beidio. Maen nhw’n mynd i moyn gwirio llyfrau, fel maen nhw gydag aelodau eraill o staff. Maen nhw’n mynd i ddymuno eu bod nhw’n bresennol mewn cyfarfodydd staff er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw’n cael y wybodaeth sydd ei hangen. Yn y pen draw, nid oes neb yn mynd i elwa—y plant yn bennaf, ond nid yw’r adran yn mynd i elwa—os bydd eu canlyniadau nhw’n dioddef oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi colli golwg ar un dosbarth, dywedwn ni, sy’n mynd i fynd trwyddo i wneud TGAU.		Ms Edwards: It would probably only happen if the person had been there for a long time, and therefore the supply teacher had become a part of the performance management regime within the school. If someone is coming in on a day-by-day basis, coming in just for a day, it is unlikely that that would happen—unless they were doing some form of team teaching. But I think, if you were teaching next door to someone and you could hear that the class was getting very disruptive, it would raise questions and someone would start investigating to see whether there was a problem, whether there was support available, and so on. Also, whoever is responsible for a department, or is responsible for a particular age group within a primary school, for example, will wish to ensure that the children are given fair play, that their subject is given fair play and that the department receives fair play, and they will therefore keep an eye on the situation and on anyone who comes in to provide supply cover, especially if they do so for a period of more than a few days, to see if there will be problems in the longer term, or not. They will want to check the books, as they would with other members of staff. They will want them to be present in staff meetings in order to ensure that they have the information that they need. In the end, no-one will benefit—least of all the children, but the department will not benefit, either—if their results suffer because they have lost track of one class, shall we say, that is going to go through to do GCSEs.
[53] Ann Jones: David, and then I’ll come back to Suzy.
[54] David Rees: I want to come back to CPD and other things. Just for clarification, we’ve talked about supply teachers on long-term contracts, but there are some who are therefore employed by the school directly and not through an agency. Do we have any percentages as to how many long-term period covers are employed directly by the schools and how many are actually employed by agencies, because that does have a different impact upon some of the CPD availability as well?
[55] Mr Hathway: I’m not aware of it, but the General Teaching Council for Wales might have that information. I think it would be more that a lot of schools would take teachers on on relatively short to medium-term contracts through agencies, and actually see the benefit of those individuals and want to employ them directly on a longer-term basis, but they have to then pay a finder’s fee to an agency, and therefore they’re reluctant to take on. So, I think if that barrier were removed, we could actually see more individuals almost work their way into a longer-term contract with a school.
[56] David Rees: For example, maternity cover is sometimes a nine-month period or a year or longer term. It’s better, though, because you can employ the person on a long-term contract.
[57] Mr Hathway: Yes, I think most schools on stuff like maternity cover would try to employ someone for a long-term contract directly, based on their relationship with them in the past, potentially—you know, they are known to them. But certainly those who have gone through an agency and whom they would like to employ after that maternity cover comes to an end, because maybe they’ve seen them as an asset to the school, they’re somewhat restricted in doing it, because, as I said, there are certain issues around contracts.
[58] David Rees: We’re talking about percentages at the moment.
[59] Mr Hathway: I don’t. I don’t know if Elaine does, maybe.
[60] Ms Edwards: Mae rhywfaint o wybodaeth fanna i chi o arolwg y cyngor addysgu y llynedd. A jest un pwynt bach ar y diwedd fan hyn i chi: nid wy’n gwybod faint o ymatebwyr oedd gyda nhw, sef faint oedd wedi ymateb, ond roedd y canran uchaf o’r ymatebwyr—45 y cant—yn gweithio’n barhaus am lai nag un tymor ar y tro mewn unrhyw un ysgol, sy’n awgrymu bod mwyafrif y gwaith cyflenwi yn cael ei ddarparu ar gyfer absenoldeb byrdymor. Dyna beth mae hwn yn ei ddweud.		Ms Edwards: There is some information there for you from the survey carried out by the general teaching council last year. And just one small point at the end for you: I don’t know how many respondents there were, how many people responded, but the highest percentage of respondents—45 per cent—were working continuously for less than one term at a time in any one school, which suggests that the majority of the supply work is delivered to cover short-term absences. That is what this says.
[61] Wrth gwrs, nawr, beth mae hynny yn ei olygu i’n haelodau ni yw bod canran uchel ohonyn nhw yn mynd drwy asiantaeth er mwyn ffeindio gwaith. Lle’r oedd e’n arfer bod yn rhywbeth a oedd yn digwydd yn y de-ddwyrain yng Nghymru, yn fwy na dim byd, mae wedi lledu yn bendant i’r gorllewin, a mynd i fyny tuag at y canolbarth, ac mae’n dod i mewn i ogledd Cymru o Loegr. Mae’n rhywbeth sydd yn ein pryderu ni fel undebau. Byddwn i’n dweud erbyn hyn bod dros 40 o asiantaethau yn gweithio yng Nghymru. Maen nhw yn cystadlu gyda’i gilydd i gynnig gwasanaeth i ysgolion i gael ysgolion i gymryd eu gwasanaeth nhw. Roedd enghreifftiau gyda ni hyd yn oed o asiantaethau yn mynd at ysgol a chynnig ‘two for the price of one’ er mwyn eu bod nhw’n cael y gwaith wrth yr ysgol yn hytrach nag asiantaeth arall. Yn ein barn ni, mae hynny yn tanseilio proffesiynoldeb addysgu fel proffesiwn. Mae’n rhan o’r tanseilio yma o addysgu fel proffesiwn—bod athrawon cyflenwi yn cael eu trin fel yna.		Of course, now what that means for our members is that a high percentage of them are going through an agency in order to find work. Where it used to be something that happened in the south-east of Wales, more than anywhere else, it has now spread, definitely to west Wales, it’s gone up towards mid Wales, and it’s coming in to north Wales from England. It is something that is a cause of concern for us as unions. I would say by now that there are more than 40 agencies working in Wales. They compete against each other to offer services to schools and to get schools to take up their services. We even had examples of agencies approaching schools and offering two for the price of one in order for them to get the work from the school as opposed to another agency. In our opinion, that undermines the professionalism of the teaching profession. It is part of this undermining of the teaching profession as a whole—that supply teachers are treated in such a way.
[62] Suzy Davies: Just a very quick question here. We’ve already received evidence that there’s extreme difficulty in some cases getting cover for Welsh-medium schools or for teaching Welsh in English-medium schools. Again, logic would suggest that there’s going to be an effect on pupil outcomes there. Do you have any evidence you can share with us, perhaps even anecdotal evidence, really?
[63] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu ei fod e’n anecdotal yn fwy na gallu rhoi ffigurau pendant i chi, ond un peth sydd yn codi dro ar ôl tro yw yn ardaloedd y de-ddwyrain lle mae ffiniau’r awdurdodau lleol yn agos iawn at ei gilydd, ond yn ddaearyddol mae’n ardal fach, mae lot o ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yna, ac yn aml, byddan nhw’n cystadlu am yr un pwll bach o athrawon ar yr un diwrnod. Dywedwch bod cwrs wedi cael ei drefnu gan asiant allanol fel Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru mewn rhyw bynciau arbennig. Wel, bydd pob un o’r ysgolion hynny’n moyn hala pobl i’r cwrs yna, ond maen nhw’n chwilio o’r un pwll o athrawon cyflenwi. Efallai fod yr athrawon hynny’n fodlon teithio i’r awdurdodau lleol hyn i gyd, achos maen nhw’n ddaearyddol weddol agos iddyn nhw, ond maen nhw’n methu â bod mewn mwy nag un lle ar y tro.		Ms Edwards: I believe it is anecdotal more than being able to give you definite figures, but one thing that arises time after time is that in areas of the south-east where the local authority boundaries are close together, although, geographically, it’s a small area, there are many Welsh-medium schools there, and very often they will be competing for the same small pool of teachers on the same day. If a course, for example, had been organised by an external agency such as the Welsh Joint Education Committee in particular subjects, then every one of those schools would want to send their staff on that course, but they’re all fishing in the same pool of supply teachers. Those supply teachers might be willing to travel to all these different LEAs, because they are geographically quite close to them, but they can’t be in more than one place at once.
[64] Hefyd, rwy’n credu ei fod e’n hollol resymol i ddweud lle bo gyda ni brinder athrawon yn gyffredinol, mae e’n mynd i fod yn wir hefyd am y sector cyflenwi. Mae prinder gyda ni o ran athrawon sy’n gallu dysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith. Mae e’n mynd i fod yn brinder o ran cyflenwi. Mae yna brinder gyda ni mewn meysydd eraill. Mae’n mynd i fod yn brinder yn y maes cyflenwi. Mae yna bethau fel pynciau craidd—mathemateg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a Saesneg mewn ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg.		I also believe that it’s quite reasonable to say that, where we have a general shortage of teaches, then the same will be true of the supply sector as well. We have a shortage of teachers who are able to teach Welsh as a second language, and therefore there will be a shortage on the supply side as well. We have shortages in other areas, and that will lead to shortages on the supply side. There are things like the core subjects—mathematics through the medium of Welsh, and English in a Welsh-medium school.
[65] Suzy Davies: But are you able to say that that, in and of itself, affects how well the pupils do? I mean, if it’s short-term—. If it’s long-term, I suspect it must.
[66] Ms Edwards: Ydy.		Ms Edwards: Yes.
[67] Suzy Davies: But if it’s short-term, can they kind of get away with it with the cover they have within schools?
[68] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu, os ydym yn sôn am ychydig ddiwrnodau fan hyn a fanco, mae modd i adran ddod rownd hynny drwy ddarparu’r gwaith, ond beth nad ydych chi’n moyn gweld ar unrhyw adeg yw cyfrwng gwers yn newid; mae hynny’n fethiant yn y system yn llwyr. Os oes rhywun yn gorfod mynd mewn i ddosbarth mewn ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, ac addysgu yn Saesneg, heblaw yr athro Saesneg, ac os yw’r pwnc yna i fod drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae’n fethiant llwyr ei fod yn gorfod cael ei addysgu trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg, hyd yn oed os ydyn nhw’n mynd mewn ac mae’r taflenni maen nhw’n gorfod gweithio arnynt yn Gymraeg, neu’r llyfrau neu’r aseiniad yn Gymraeg. Ac, felly, mae’n fethiant ein bod ni’n methu darparu.		Ms Edwards: I believe that, if we’re just talking about a couple of days here and there, it’s possible for a department to deal with that by preparing work, but what you don’t want to see happening at any time is the language medium of a lesson changing, or that becomes a complete failure in the system. If somebody has to go into a class in a Welsh-medium school, and teach through the medium of English, apart from the English teacher, when that subject is supposed to be taught through the medium of Welsh, it is a complete failure if it has to be taught through the medium of English, even if they go in and the worksheets that they have to work on are in Welsh, or the books or assignments are in Welsh. And, therefore, it is a failure that we are unable to provide.
[69] Suzy Davies: Ocê, diolch.		Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you.
[70] Ann Jones: Keith, you’ve got a small point and then we’ll move on.
[71] Keith Davies: Mae’r ddau ohonoch yn eich tystiolaeth yn sôn am gynorthwywyr dysgu.  Roedd Aled yn gofyn i chi yn gynharach am beth y dylai rheolwyr ysgol ei wneud o ran edrych ar ôl gwaith y plant. Yn eich ateb chi, y rheswm rydych wedi’i roi yw ei bod yn amlwg ei fod e’n digwydd. A yw e’n digwydd yn gyson? Wedyn, oni ddylai’r rheolwyr fod yn paratoi defnydd er mwyn bod y plant yn gallu gweithio a bod y cynorthwywyr dysgu yn sicrhau bod y plant yn gweithio?		Keith Davies: Both of you in your evidence mention teaching assistants. Aled asked you earlier what schools managers should be doing in terms of looking after the children’s work. In your answer, the reason that you gave was that it was obvious that this was happening. Does it happen regularly? Then, shouldn’t the managers be preparing materials so that the children can work and that the teaching assistants can ensure that the children are working?
[72] Mr Hathway: I think it probably is happening, and more and more because of the pressures put on schools financially. They’re relying more and more on that as a way to fill their staffing complement without having to pay for supply to come in. In terms of the suggestion about providing work that the classroom assistants can oversee, I’d say that at no point should a lesson be taught by anyone other than a qualified teacher. Ultimately, we’re constantly hearing this idea that it’s the quality of teaching in the class that makes the biggest difference. It’s completely inappropriate and unfair to ask someone, even with the highest level of competency amongst HLTAs, who is not trained, not qualified—and ultimately it’s about protecting them as well—and not paid, to do that job. Even in a short-term area, I think that those HLTAs may have a good understanding of their classes—they’d certainly contribute well to supporting teaching—but they’re not teachers. And even just overseeing a lesson prepared by a teacher is something that we would be strongly against.
[73] Ms Edwards: Mae sawl peth fan hyn, onid oes e? Os oes rhywun wedi cael ei gyflogi i fod yn gymhorthydd, rhoi cymorth ddylen nhw fod yn ei wneud. Dyna beth maen nhw’n cael eu talu i’w wneud; dyna beth maen nhw wedi cael eu hyfforddi i wneud. Nid ydyn nhw wedi cael eu hyfforddi i reoli dosbarth cyfan; nid ydyn nhw wedi cael eu hyfforddi mewn pwnc penodol, os taw dosbarth uwchradd yw e, er enghraifft. Mae e’n dodi unigolyn mewn sefyllfa anodd dros ben i orfod rheoli dosbarth. Mae rhai o’n dosbarthiadau ni yn mynd lan i 35—rheoli dosbarth o 35 o blant, weithiau yn eu harddegau, pan nad ydynt wedi cael eu hyfforddi ar gyfer hynny a phan nad yw’r wybodaeth bynciol gyda nhw. Os ydyn nhw’n cyflwyno gwaith i’r plant ei wneud ac mae rhywun yn gofyn cwestiwn, mae plant yn pigo lan yn glou. Mae’r bobl rownd y bwrdd sydd wedi bod yn athrawon yn gwybod; mae plant yn eu harddegau yn synhwyro ofn, a beth sy’n digwydd yw y byddan nhw’n chwarae lan; maen nhw’n mynd i ofyn cwestiynau lletchwith ac maen nhw’n mynd i chwarae lan. Mae e’n rysáit ar gyfer methiant os ydych yn dodi rhywun lan yna heb strwythur i’w cefnogi nhw.		Ms Edwards: There are a number of things here, aren’t there? If somebody has been employed to be an assistant, then it is assisting that they should be doing. That is what they’re being paid for; that is what they have been trained for. They have not been trained to control a whole class; they have not been trained in a specific subject, if it’s a secondary school class, for example. It places the individual in an extremely difficult position in trying to manage a class. Some of our classes can be of up to 35—controlling a class of 35 children, teenagers sometimes, when they have not been trained for that and when they do not have the subject knowledge. If they are presenting work to the children and someone asks them a question, children pick things up very quickly. The people around the table who have been teachers know; teenagers can sense fear, and what happens is that they will play up; they’re going to ask awkward questions and they’re going to play up. It is a recipe for disaster if you’re going to put a person in there without a structure to support them.
[74] Hefyd, rydych yn disgwyl i rywun weithio uwchben ei lefel hyfforddiant ac uwchben ei pay grade. Fel undeb, rydym yn meddwl bod hynny yn trio darparu addysg ar y siep. Mae’r cynorthwywyr dosbarth yn aml wedi cael eu cyflogi i weithio gydag unigolion, neu grwpiau bach sydd ag anghenion addysgol arbennig. Os ydych chi wedyn yn eu rhoi nhw mewn sefyllfa o, ‘O, cewch chi edrych ar ôl y dosbarth heddiw’, beth sy’n digwydd i’r unigolion yna o fewn y dosbarth sydd angen y cyngor a’r cymorth un i un? Mae hynny’n rhywbeth sydd yn digwydd; mae e’n digwydd i bobl rydym ni yn eu hadnabod sy’n gweithio fel cynorthwywyr. Maen nhw’n cael eu tynnu oddi wrth y plant yna achos bod rhywbeth yn codi yn yr ysgol.		Also, you’re expecting somebody to work above their level of training and above their pay grade. As a union, we think that that is trying to deliver education on the cheap. Teaching assistants have often been employed to work on a one-to-one basis, or with small groups with special educational needs. If you then place them in a situation of, ‘Oh, you can look after this class today’, what happens to those individuals within the class who require that one-to-one support and assistance? It is something that happens; it happens to people we know who work as assistants. They are taken away from those children because something has arisen in the school.
10:15
[75] Hefyd, mae rhai wedi cael eu cyflogi i weithio yn y cyfnod sylfaen er mwyn i’r ratio plant ac oedolion fod yn llai. Mae’r syniad yma o roi cymhorthydd o flaen dosbarth cyfan yn gwneud nonsens o’r holl gynlluniau hynny, heb sôn am fod yn hollol annheg ar y cymhorthydd.		Also, some have been employed to work in the foundation phase so that the child-adult ratio is smaller. This idea of putting an assistant in front of a class makes a mockery of all that planning, not to mention it being totally unfair on the assistant.
[76] Keith Davies: Roeddech yn sôn yn eich tystiolaeth am ostwng safonau. Onid yw e’n gyfrifoldeb ar y rheolwyr yn y pen draw i sicrhau nad yw hyn yn digwydd? Mae enghreifftiau yn y llyfr, lle rydym ni wedi cael pobl yn ymateb, sy’n dweud bod ambell ysgol yn cael athrawon cyflenwi i mewn a’u talu ar lefel cynorthwywyr.		Keith Davies: You mentioned in your evidence declining standards. Is it not the responsibility of managers, ultimately, to ensure that that doesn’t happen? We have examples of people responding and saying that some schools get supply teachers in and pay them at assistant level.
[77] Ms Edwards: Beth sydd wedi digwydd hefyd, ers datblygiadau gyda’r ddogfen cyflog ac amodau athrawon ysgol—fel rydych yn gwybod, mae’n cael ei newid bob blwyddyn, fel y mae pethau’n cael eu haddasu—. Pan gyflwynwyd y cytundeb llwyth gwaith er mwyn trio torri lawr ar fiwrocratiaeth i athrawon a dod i mewn â rheolau prin gyflenwi, awgrymwyd wedyn, yn adran canllawiau’r ddogfen, ddulliau o fynd i’r afael â chyflenwi o fewn yr ysgol. Un peth oedd defnyddio cover supervisors. Beth mae rhai ysgolion wedi’i wneud yw cyflogi, efallai, un neu ddau athro yn ychwanegol mewn sefyllfa uwchradd ar eu staff a’u cyflogi nhw nid fel athrawon, ond fel cover supervisors, a’u gwaith nhw yw darparu gwaith cyflenwi o fewn yr ysgol. Beth rydym ni’n ei ddadlau yw y dylai’r bobl hynny fod yn cael eu talu fel athrawon oherwydd beth y maen nhw’n mynd i fod yn ei wneud ym mhob gwers y maen nhw’n ei gyflenwi yw addysgu’r plant. Hefyd, rydych yn cael profiad ac arbenigedd—chi’n cael popeth sydd ynghlwm ag athro profiadol—o flaen y dosbarth trwy’r amser. Mewn rhai ysgolion, maen nhw’n cael eu cyflogi ar y raddfa yna er mwyn gallu gwneud y gwaith.		Ms Edwards: What has also happened, since developments with the school teachers pay and conditions document—as you know, that document is amended every year, as things are adapted—. When the workload agreement was introduced in order to try and cut down on the bureaucracy for teachers and introduce the rarely cover guidance, methods were suggested in the document’s section on guidance for tackling supply. One option was the use of cover supervisors. What some schools have done, perhaps in secondary schools, is employ one or two additional teachers on their staff, not as teachers but as cover supervisors, and their work is to provide supply cover within the school. What we argue is that those people should be paid as teachers, because what they’re going to be doing in every lesson is teaching the children. You also get experience and expertise—you have everything that a professional teacher has—in front of the class all of the time. In some schools, they are employed on that level in order to do that work.
[78] Keith Davies: Felly, bai pwy yw hynny? A yw’n fai ar y rheolwyr neu ar y llywodraethwyr?		Keith Davies: So, whose fault is that? Is it the managers’ fault or the governors’ fault?
[79] Ms Edwards: Sori, Keith, ond mae yna un sefyllfa arall ro’n i’n mynd i ddod ato. Weithiau, byddan nhw’n prynu mewn athrawon profiadol ar lefel cover supervisor, ond efallai ei fod e’n digwydd mwy pan maen nhw’n edrych ar ôl arholiadau allanol a does dim addysgu. Mae honno’n sefyllfa nawr sydd wedi dod fel pe bai’n dderbyniol. Ond o ran telerau ac amodau gwaith, os oes rhywun yn cyflenwi yn y dosbarth ac yn addysgu, rydym yn teimlo y dylen nhw fod yn cael eu talu yn ôl y school teachers’ pay and conditions document.		Ms Edwards: Sorry, Keith, but there is one other situation that I was going to mention. Sometimes, they will buy in experienced teachers on the cover supervisor level, but that might happen more when they are invigilating external exams and there’s no teaching involved. That’s a situation that has now almost become acceptable. But from the point of view of the terms and conditions of employment, if somebody is providing cover in the classroom and is actually teaching, then we believe that they should be paid according to the school teachers’ pay and conditions document.
[80] Ann Jones: Okay. Bethan wants to make a point on this, but we must make some progress. We’ve got a quarter of an hour left.
[81] Bethan Jenkins: Dim ond oherwydd bod Estyn wedi ateb fy nghwestiwn yr wythnos diwethaf; rwy’n credu ei fod yn bwysig fy mod yn ei ofyn eto. Roeddwn wedi gofyn a oedd yna ryw fath o ddigwyddiadau mewn ysgolion lle mae amodau gwaith yn cymryd mantais o hyn—er enghraifft, cynorthwywyr addysgu lefel uwch yn dysgu pan na ddylent fod yn dysgu. Dywedon nhw nad oedd digon o dystiolaeth i awgrymu bod rhywbeth systematig yn digwydd o fewn ysgolion. A ydych yn cytuno â hynny? O beth rwy’n ei glywed, mae’n swnio fel pe bai hyn yn digwydd, ond a yw’n rhywbeth sydd yn trend ynteu a yw jest yn digwydd mewn rhai ysgolion?		Bethan Jenkins: Just because Estyn responded to my question last week; I think it is important that I ask the question again. I asked whether there were incidents in schools where work conditions took advantage of this—for example, that a higher level teaching assistant was teaching when they should not be teaching. They said that there wasn’t enough evidence to suggest that anything systematic was happening in schools. Do you agree with that? From what I hear, it sounds as if it does happen, but is it something that is a trend or is it just happening in some schools?
[82] Mr Hathway: I think, anecdotally, that it happens as a trend, but those schools are not going to advertise the fact that they’re putting people who are not qualified teachers in front of a class. I don’t think that parents would appreciate it. We, as unions, obviously wouldn’t and I don’t think that Estyn would. So, I think that it’s hard to find the evidence for it on paper, but we do know, from our networks and our members, that it is relatively widespread across Wales. It’s not unheard of for it to happen at least on occasion in most schools, I would suggest.
[83] Ms Edwards: Un sefyllfa lle mae e’n digwydd hefyd yw er mwyn sicrhau bod rhywun o flaen dosbarth pan mae athrawon yn cael eu hamser cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu. Yn eironig, maen nhw fod i gael yr amser hwnnw i gynllunio, paratoi ac asesu ar gyfer eu gwersi nhw, ond mewn rhai sefyllfaoedd, maen nhw’n gorfod gadael gwaith ar gyfer y dosbarth fel bod y cynorthwyydd yn defnyddio’r gwaith hwnnw gyda’r dosbarth, sydd yn tanseilio’r pwrpas.		Ms Edwards: One situation where it does happen as well is in order to ensure that someone is in front of the class when teachers have their time to plan, prepare and assess. Ironically, they are supposed to have the time to plan, prepare and assess their own lessons, but in some situations, they have to leave work for the class so that the HLTA uses that work with the class, which undermines the aim.
[84] Ann Jones: Okay. We’re going to move on to continuous professional development and performance management. We’re running short on time, but if it’s okay, we will extend this session, to get the questions in. David first, and then Simon.
[85] David Rees: I’ll try and be quick. You’ve both stressed this morning the very great importance of CPD to ensure the quality of staff to deliver for pupil outcomes. We’ve obviously seen the national learning model, and this week the Minister actually announced a new deal for the education workforce, which has a professional learning passport. Under the current circumstances, is that actually going to disadvantage supply teachers, because you have identified the difficulty in their getting access to CPD and, therefore, their portfolio, as such, will be a lot weaker, and if they want to go to permanent posts, will that be a problem for them?
[86] Mr Hathway: I think the jury is still out on whether the new deal is actually going to deliver a huge amount of CPD for the profession, but—
[87] David Rees: No, I’m not talking about delivering it; it’s actually recording it, isn’t it?
[88] Mr Hathway: Yes, okay, but, I mean, if we assume that everything goes well with it and it does allow access and records it properly for all existing teachers, I wouldn’t use a firm ‘It disadvantages supply teachers’, because we want that to happen for the general teaching profession, but I think you are right to say that that disadvantages teachers who don’t then get the access to CPD, who don’t get it recorded and don’t get the evidence of the sort of things they’re doing to improve their professional development and to keep up to speed on new policies. I mean, we’re having a curriculum review, there are supply teachers who may not have access to training on that who will be going into schools a year or two down the line without having had the same sort of conversation that all the other teachers in that school will have had about design and implementation of the curriculum, despite the fact they have to work in that environment. So, will they be disadvantaged by it coming in? I don’t think so. But it’ll exemplify the problem that they’re already having at the moment, I think.
[89] David Rees: As a consequence of the—. We have the situation with CPD, so who’s going to be responsible? We have agencies that supply supply teachers at the moment, but I know the NUT has been very strongly positioned that local authorities should keep to their local pools. As this grows, who should take responsibility for providing CPD for the profession, whether it’s people in permanent posts or supply teachers?
[90] Mr Hathway: If the funding was there—that’s the big question, obviously, isn’t it?—then I think it’s a combination of schools, if they’re able to bring people, particularly if they’re on medium to long-term contracts, in for supply, and regional consortia have got a role in terms of ensuring standards. So I think the regional consortia should have a role in terms of ensuring access to professional development for all teachers, including supply teachers. If we do get back to the idea of maintained pools of supply teachers by local authorities, or whichever level of governance runs that, then, obviously, it would be incumbent on them, I think, to ensure that CPD was available to them as well.
[91] Ms Edwards: Mae e wir yn berygl bod athrawon cyflenwi yn cwympo naill ochr, ac yn parhau i wneud, hyd yn oed o fewn y system newydd. Mae’n broblem, rwy’n credu, i bobl ffeindio cyrsiau. Os ŷch chi mewn ysgol a bod rhywbeth yn cael ei gynnig—hyfforddiant ar ddiwrnod HMS yn fewnol neu rhywbeth mae’r consortiwm yn mynd i’w ddarparu—fe fyddwch chi’n clywed amdano fe. Ond os ŷch chi’n athro cyflenwi sy’n mynd o ddydd i ddydd, fyddwch chi ddim yn clywed amdano fe. Rwy’n credu bod angen system well o gyfathrebu a rhyw ffordd o sicrhau bod athrawon cyflenwi, efallai yn yr ardal lle maen nhw’n byw, yn gallu cael mynediad i beth bynnag yw arlwy ysgolion lleol neu beth mae’r consortiwm yn gallu cynnig. Mae’n edrych nawr fel petai rôl yn mynd i fod gan gyngor y gweithlu addysg i sicrhau ansawdd cyrsiau, a dylai bod rôl rhywle yn y fan honno, felly, i hwyluso hawl athrawon cyflenwi i dderbyn hyfforddiant.		Ms Edwards: There is a real danger that supply teachers fall by the wayside, and continue to do so, even within the new system. It is a problem, I believe, for people to find courses. If you’re in a school and something is on offer—training in an internal in-service training day or something provided by the consortium—you will hear about it. But if you’re a supply teacher going from day to day, then you won’t hear about it. I think that a better communication system is needed and some way of ensuring that supply teachers, perhaps in the area where they live, are able to access whatever the offering is in local schools or whatever the consortium is able to offer. It now appears that the education workforce council is going to have a role in ensuring the quality of courses and there should be a role somewhere in that, therefore, to facilitate the right of supply teachers to receive training.
[92] Mr Hathway: I think, picking up, if I could, on that point, that Elaine is right to say that it is hearing about these courses, but it’s actually being able to take them up as well. If a supply teacher commits to going on a course, paid or otherwise, they’re essentially taking themselves out of the opportunity to do a day’s work in a school, which is a financial commitment, but also, for some supply teachers, going to work in that school gets their name known in that school, builds a relationship with those pupils and that school, for future employment. So, they are really restricted in being able to access opportunities. We as a union put some professional development on from time to time for our members, and supply teachers do take that up, but, often, they’re unable to do so because there is an opportunity to do a day’s cover or a week’s cover that they simply can’t turn down.
[93] David Rees: Can I ask one final point on this? Obviously, there’s a lot of discussion about online learning, and I’m a fan of online learning and distance learning through the Open University as examples of excellence. However, is there a fear that the easy option is for people to say, ‘There’s an online course’? Because, you don’t always get the support, sometimes, and the interaction with other professionals on the online systems. Do we need to ensure that there’s a fair balance of CPD to all teachers?
[94] Mr Hathway: I think—I mean, I agree with you. I’ve done online learning myself and I am a big fan of it, but I think that in many cases, some of the best professional development we’ve had is teacher to teacher, and I wouldn’t want supply teachers to be treated any differently, in terms of their access online, whilst those in permanent posts get the opportunity to do other types of training. So, I think, yes, we should look at it as a way of allowing access to CPD, but it should be to complement the system, rather than, ‘That’s the one and only role for supply’.
[95] Ann Jones: Aled, you’ve got a brief point on that.
[96] Aled Roberts: Jest er mwyn i mi ddeall yn union beth yw’r sefyllfa, o dan yr hen drefn—rwy’n meddwl erbyn mis Medi, bydd pob un o’r cynghorau yn defnyddio’r cytundeb fframwaith yma efo’r asiantaethau—ond, o dan yr hen drefn, a oedd yna gyfnod erioed pan yr oedd athrawon cyflenwi yn cael cyrsiau datblygu proffesiynol wedi’u talu gan gynghorau lleol? Neu, a ydych chi’n awgrymu bod hyn yn cael ei ymestyn, er, o dan hyd yn oed yr hen drefn, nid oedd yna baratoadau ar eu cyfer nhw?		Aled Roberts: Just so that I can understand exactly what the situation is, under the old system—I believe that by September, all of the councils will be using this framework agreement with the agencies—but, under the old system, were there any periods when supply teachers were given professional development courses paid for by the LEAs? Or, are you suggesting that this should be extended, although, even under the old system, no such arrangement was in place?
[97] Ms Edwards: Mae’n rhaid imi gyfaddef, Aled, mae’r asiantaethau wedi bod yn eu lle nawr, mae’n teimlo fel cyhyd, nid wyf i’n cofio, o dan yr hen drefn, a fyddai tâl wedi bod, ond rwy’n credu y byddai wedi bod yn haws i rywun i gael mynediad at gwrs. Mae’r ffaith nad ydyn nhw’n gallu cael mynediad yn anodd iawn. Mae—		Ms Edwards: I have to admit, Aled, the agencies have been in place now for so long that I can’t remember whether there would have been payment under the old system, but I think it would be easier for someone to access a course. The fact that they are unable to access courses is very difficult. It—
[98] Aled Roberts: Ond mae sôn am ymestyn cyfrifoldeb cynghorau ar gyfer ariannu cyrsiau, yn y sefyllfa ariannol sydd ohoni, hwyrach, braidd yn anymarferol.		Aled Roberts: But talking about extending the responsibility of councils for funding courses, in the current financial climate, is, perhaps, a bit impractical.
[99] Ms Edwards: Wel, efallai mai beth y mae’n rhaid i ni gofio yw bod yr athrawon cyflenwi yn rhan o’r gweithlu addysg, ac mae hynny’n cael ei anghofio—nes bod angen athro cyflenwi arnoch chi, mae’n cael ei anghofio. Ac, yn yr un modd, o ran yr awdurdodau lleol ac ati, os na fyddai athrawon cyflenwi ar gael gyda ni, byddai ysgolion o fewn yr awdurdodau yn dioddef o’r diffyg yna. Mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl bod angen i bobl gymryd cyfrifoldeb, felly, am hynny. Fe fydd angen i ysgolion, nawr, gynnwys yn eu cynllun datblygu nhw, fel maen nhw’n mynd i ddarparu hyfforddiant i’w staff nhw. Nawr, mae eisiau i ni feddwl am rywun yn bod yn atebol am ddatblygiad proffesiynol athrawon cyflenwi, achos mae gyda nhw rhan allweddol i’w chwarae yn y system addysg.		Ms Edwards: Well, maybe what we need to remember is that the supply teachers are part of the education workforce, and that is being forgotten—until you need a supply teacher, it’s forgotten. And, in the same way, in relation to local authorities and so on, if supply teachers weren’t available, then the schools within the authorities would suffer due to that shortage. So, we need to think that people need to take responsibility for that. Schools will need to include, in their development plans, how they intend to provide training to their staff. We need to think of who is going to be responsible for the CPD of supply staff, because they do have a crucial part to play in the education system.
[100] Ann Jones: We’ve got three minutes of this session left and we’ve still got half of the CPD to do, and we’ve got supply agencies, so, I’m going to have to—I know Simon hasn’t spoken yet, and this is not at Simon—but can we have some shorter answers, and, if you’re having a supplementary question, a short supplementary question with a short answer? Simon.
[101] Simon Thomas: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Rwyf jest eisiau deall really—mae’n ymddangos i fi ei bod hi’n gybolfa lwyr ar hyn o bryd a bod neb yn cymryd y cyfrifoldeb am ddarparu addysg datblygu proffesiynol i’r sector cyflenwi o gwbl. Rŷm ni wedi cael yr asiantaethau yma mewn ymchwiliad arall lle yr oedden nhw’n dweud eu bod nhw ddim yn darparu ond y lefel fwyaf elfennol—chi’n gwybod, health and safety a phethau felly—a dim byd yn fwy na hynny. Pwy, yn eich barn chi, a ddylai fod yn darparu—a ddylai fod yn gyfrifol am ddarparu—hwn?		Simon Thomas: Thank you, Chair. I just want to understand really—it appears to me to be a total mess at the present time and that nobody is taking responsibility for CPD for the supply sector whatsoever. We’ve had agencies in for another inquiry where they said that they didn’t provide anything but the very basic level, which was just health and safety and so on, and nothing more than that. Who, in your view, should provide—or should be responsible for the provision of—CPD for supply teachers?
[102] Mr Hathway: I think that, ideally, it would be done through schools, with the staff they have, with the training they have for their own staff, identifying the gaps that they have. They can do it with the supply agencies, but, obviously, it would have to be funded elsewhere, because I don’t think the schools—
[103] Simon Thomas: But, we’ve already established schools are not going to do this, because they’re not going to train a supply teacher who goes and works in other schools. So, schools are out; next step, who’s going to do this? Who’s going to take responsibility for this?
[104] Mr Hathway: If we’re saying that schools are out, then I think it has to fall to the regional consortia to look at their overview of the professional development for their areas and on a national level as well, isn’t it?
[105] Simon Thomas: Y consortia, felly, ie?		Simon Thomas: The consortia, therefore?
[106] Ms Edwards: Maen nhw’n adnodd, ac maen nhw’n adnodd hollbwysig, ac rwy’n gwybod ein bod ni wedi siarad heddiw am wendidau, ond mae yna athrawon cyflenwi arbennig mas yna, sydd yn gwneud cyfraniad arbennig o dda i’n system addysg ni, ac yn gwneud swydd anodd iawn. Byddai’n hollol resymol, yn fy marn i, fod yna system lle mae’r rhanbarthau yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb fel bod pob athro cyflenwi yng Nghymru yn gallu cael mynediad at hyfforddiant.		Ms Edwards: They are a resource, and they are a vital resource, and I know we’ve talked about weaknesses today, but there are some really fantastic supply teachers out there, who make an excellent contribution to our education system, and who actually carry out a very difficult job. It would be quite reasonable, in my view, if there were a system where the regions took responsibility so that every supply teacher in Wales could gain access to training.
10:30
[107] Simon Thomas: Ble mae hwn yn gadael cyngor y gweithlu addysg newydd? Maen nhw wedi cael y ddyletswydd, mae’n ymddangos i mi, yn y datganiad gan y Gweinidog, i fod yn gyfrifol am y pasbort yma, ond, hyd y gwelaf i, nid ydyn nhw wedi’u hariannu na’u cyllido i wneud y gwaith yma. Heb fynd dros hen dir yn y pwyllgor yma, fe wrthodwyd gwelliannau i’r Bil a wnaeth sefydlu’r cyngor gweithlu newydd a fyddai wedi gwneud eu rôl nhw ynglŷn â datblygu proffesiynol yn fwy eglur. Felly, rhyw baragraff bach sy’n caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd. A ydych chi’n ofni bod dyletswydd arweiniol gan gyngor y gweithlu addysg yn mynd i weithio neu a ydych chi’n ofni bod y ffocws yn mynd i lithro unwaith eto ar yr agwedd yma, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun athrawon cyflenwi, wrth gwrs?		Simon Thomas: Where does that leave the new education workforce council? They’ve been given a responsibility, it seems to me, by the Minister to be responsible for this passport, but, as far as I can see, they haven’t been funded to carry out this work. Without going over the same old ground in this committee, amendments to the Bill that established the new workforce council, which would have made their role with regard to professional development clearer, were rejected. So, there’s just a very minor paragraph that enables this to happen. Are you concerned that the lead duty that the education workforce council has will work or are you concerned that the focus will slip once again, particularly in the context of supply teachers?
[108] Ms Edwards: Efallai bod beth maen nhw i fod i’w wneud ddim o reidrwydd yn mynd i ddarparu’r hyfforddiant. Maen nhw’n mynd i sicrhau bod ansawdd hyfforddiant—dyna bart o’r rôl—a sicrhau cofnod, ond nid ydyn nhw’n mynd i ddarparu. Pan gafodd y cyngor addysgu ei sefydlu’n wreiddiol, roedd yna fwrsarïau ac roedd pob athro yn gallu gwneud cais am fwrsari a fyddai’n talu am yr hyfforddiant iddyn nhw. Roedd hwnnw ar agor i athro cyflenwi neu athro mewn ysgol. Roedd hwnnw yn rhywbeth oedd yn rhoi cyfle i rywun, ond nid yw hyn yn rhan o’r system newydd. Felly, nid oes guarantees yn mynd i ddod o gyngor y gweithlu addysg yma; nid ydyn nhw’n mynd i allu rhoi’r hyfforddiant.		Ms Edwards: Perhaps what they are supposed to do won’t necessarily provide the training. They will ensure the quality of the training—that’s part of the role—and that there’s a record, but they’re not necessarily going to provide it. When the general teaching council was initially established, there were bursaries and all teachers could apply for a bursary that would pay for training for them. That was open to supply teachers or teachers in schools. That was an opportunity, but this isn’t part of the new system. So, there will be no guarantees from the education workforce council; they’re not going to be able to provide the training.
[109] Simon Thomas: Rydym ni’n sôn am athrawon cyflenwi, rwy’n gwybod, ond allwch chi ddim datod athrawon cyflenwi o’r proffesiwn fel y cyfan. Maen nhw, fel rydych chi newydd ddweud, yn mynd mewn a mas. Weithiau maen nhw’n athrawon proffesiynol llawn amser; weithiau maen nhw’n cyflenwi, ac ati. Nid oes darlun clir yn fy meddwl i o beth yw llwybr datblygu proffesiynol bellach. Rydym ni wedi bod yn sôn am fod hwn yn broffesiwn meistr. Rydym ni wedi bod yn sôn am drio dechrau gyda rhai newydd ond yn adeiladu i gael pob athro yn feistr yn ei grefft, fel petai. Rydym ni wedi sôn am sut i ehangu hyn i athrawon cyflenwi. A oes gennych chi unrhyw ddarlun neu weledigaeth? Rwy’n gwybod mai adnoddau yw rhan o hwn, ond, yn fwy nag adnoddau, a oes gennych chi unrhyw ddarlun neu weledigaeth o sut y gall hwn weithio i broffesiwn cyfan gan gynnwys yr athrawon cyflenwi hefyd?		Simon Thomas: We’re talking about supply teachers, I know, but you can’t really disaggregate supply teachers from the profession as a whole. As you’ve just said, they come in and out. Sometimes they are full-time professional teachers; sometimes they’re there to cover, and so on. There’s no clear picture in my mind of what the professional development pathway is now. We’ve said that this is a master professor. We’ve said that we want to try and start with the new recruits, but that we’re trying to get every teacher to be a master of their craft, as it were. We’ve talked about how to extend this to supply teachers. Do you have any picture or vision in your mind? I know that resources are a part of this, but, more than that, have you any kind of vision of how this could work for the whole profession, including the supply teachers as well?
[110] Mr Hathway: I think it is a mixed picture, because regional consortia are tasked with improving standards, then surely that encompasses professional development, and it certainly does encompass supply as well as full-time posts. As you say, there is almost a tacit nod that the EWC are going to be doing some of that—it wasn’t written into the Bill. So, there is almost an abdication of responsibility between the two, and no-one is particularly clear. I think if regional consortia are there to ensure support for improving standards, then I think it is incumbent on them to ensure support and access for professional development for all teachers, particularly maybe supply teachers who couldn’t access it through networks within existing schools.
[111] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu mai’r ffaith bod neb yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb sy’n beryglus. Mae’n rhaid inni gofio hefyd, yn ôl tystiolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun, erbyn 2022-23, bydd cymaint o blant wedi dod mewn i’r system addysg achos nifer y genedigaethau, bydd angen y cyflenwad o athrawon sydd ar hyn o bryd yn cyflenwi—y returners maen nhw’n galw nhw—arnom ni er mwyn ffurfio ein gweithlu addysg ni ar y pryd. Bydd dim digon o athrawon gennym ni. Beth maen nhw wedi’i ddweud yw:		Ms Edwards: I think the fact that no-one takes responsibility is what is dangerous. We have to remember that, according to the Welsh Government’s evidence, by 2022-23, there will be so many children who will have come into the education system because of the birth rate, that we’ll need that cohort of teachers who are currently supply teachers—the returners, as they are called—in order to form our education workforce at the time. We will have a shortage of teachers. What they’ve said is:
[112] ‘there would be no over-supply of primary ITT entrants, but a sustained and significant reliance on large numbers of re-entrants to fill vacant positions.’
[113] Rydym ni yn moyn bod nhw wedi cael y mynediad at yr hyfforddiant yna ac yn teimlo’n ddigon hyderus i ddod nôl i ddysgu’n llawn amser, neu mae’n mynd i fod yn fwy o gost i ni yn y pen draw, hyd yn oed os yw’r Llywodraeth yn ganolog yn mynd ar ôl y gost yna ar gyfer y gweithlu, sydd ar y tu allan i raddau.		We want them to have had access to that training and to feel confident enough to return to teach full time, otherwise it’s going to involve more cost in the long run, even if central Government goes after that cost for the workforce, which is on the outside to some degree.
[114] Simon Thomas:  Y cwestiwn olaf ar hwn, os caf i. Os ydym ni’n sôn yn y tymor hir am wneud dysgu yn broffesiwn yn y ffordd mae’r Gweinidog wedi bod yn sôn amdano, ac y mae nifer o bobl eraill wedi bod yn sôn amdano, sef ei fod yn dod yn broffesiwn sy’n arwain ei hunan, lle mae hunan-arfarnu yn digwydd, ac mae yna ddysgu athro i athro—mae hynny’n gwneud pethau ar-lein bach yn anodd rwy’n meddwl—wrth edrych ar y proffesiwn yna, ac rŷch chi’n edrych ar broffesiynau eraill sydd yn arddel yr un fath o beth—bod yn gyfreithiwr neu’n fargyfreithiwr, neu feddyginiaeth, neu beth bynnag yw e—yr hyn rŷch chi’n ei weld yn glir yn y proffesiynau eraill yna yw, oni bai eich bod chi’n cadw at lwybr dysgu datblygiad proffesiynol, chewch chi ddim: a) pwyntiau sy’n caniatáu i chi weithio mewn meysydd penodol, neu b) fynediad at ran nesaf yr ysgol o ran cyflogaeth. Mae hi mor syml â hynny. Mae’n rhaid i chi gadw lan neu rŷch chi’n colli cyfle i ennill arian neu gyfle i ychwanegu at eich cyflog.		Simon Thomas: Final question on this, if I may. If we’re talking in the long term about making teaching a profession in the way in which the Minister has been talking about, and a number of other people have been talking about, that it is a self-leading profession, with self-assessment and that there’s teacher-to-teacher training—that makes doing things online a little bit difficult, I think—in looking at that profession and comparing it to other professions that operate in the same manner—whether it’s a lawyer or a barrister or doctor, or whatever it may be—what you will see clearly in the other professions is that unless you actually adhere to the CPD pathway, you will not: a) be given points that will allow you to work in specific areas, or b) you won’t have any access to the next step on the salary ladder. It’s as simple as that. You have to maintain your learning or you will lose out on an opportunity to earn money or an opportunity to add to your salary.
[115] Oes modd cyflwyno’r math yna o gadernid i mewn i system os yw e’n cael ei ‘match-o’ gyda hawl i ddatblygu proffesiynol? Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi bod yn sôn am yr hawl. Rwy’n gwybod nad yw’r manylion yno eto, ond maen nhw wedi bod yn sôn am yr hawl. A ddylem ni fod yn edrych ar ddyletswydd ar y proffesiwn hefyd i gadw i fyny gyda datblygiad proffesiynol, os ydym ni’n gwneud yn siŵr bod y llwybrau i gyd yn agored i athrawon cyflenwi hefyd? A ydy hyn yn ffordd o drin pawb—athrawon cyflenwi ac athrawon llawn amser—mewn ffordd sydd yn gyson ac yn deg?		Is it possible to introduce that type of robustness into the system if it is being matched to the right to professional development? I know the Government has been talking about the entitlement to CPD. I know that the details aren’t quite there yet, but they have been talking about the entitlement. Should we be looking at a duty on the profession to keep up with CPD if we make sure that all pathways are open to supply teachers too? Is it a way of dealing with everybody—supply teachers and full-time teachers—in a fair and consistent manner?
[116] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu, os ydych chi’n gofyn i’r proffesiwn, maen nhw’n dymuno cael hyfforddiant. Y broblem sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol yw bod yr arian wedi diflannu, a’ch bod chi i lawr i—.		Ms Edwards: I believe that, if you ask the profession, they wish to receive training. The problem in the past has been that the money has disappeared, and that you’re down to—.
[117] Simon Thomas: A ydych chi’n dweud nad ydyn nhw’n trystio bod hyn yn mynd i ddigwydd, fel petai—bod profiad y gorffennol yn meddwl eu bod nhw wedi colli ffydd bod hyn yn mynd i ddigwydd?		Simon Thomas: Are you saying that they don’t have faith that this will happen, as it were—that past experiences mean that they’ve lost faith that this will happen?
[118] Ms Edwards: Ie, rwy’n credu, ac yn ein harolwg ni, gwnaethom ni un adran o’n harolwg ni ar hyfforddiant, ac roeddem ni’n gofyn y cwestiwn, ‘Os nad ydych chi wedi derbyn hyfforddiant o fewn y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf, beth yw’r rhesymau am hynny?’ Cyllid; dim cyrsiau addas; dim cyrsiau cyfrwng Cymraeg; pobl eraill o fewn yr ysgol yn cael y flaenoriaeth. Dyna’r prif resymau a oedd yn cael eu rhoi. Mae bron fel petai rhywun wedi cael ei adnabod fel rhywun fyddai’n cael gyrfa ddisglair, felly cân nhw’r cyrsiau, ond bydd rhywun arall ddim.		Ms Edwards: Yes, I think so, and in our survey, one part of it was on training, and we were asking the question, ‘If you haven’t received any training within the past two years, what are the reasons for that?’ It was funding; no appropriate courses; no Welsh-medium courses; other people within the school being given priority. Those were the main reasons given. It is almost as if someone would have been identified as having a good career ahead of them, so they would get to attend courses, but someone else wouldn’t.
[119] Simon Thomas: Ffafriaeth.		Simon Thomas: Favouritism.
[120] Ms Edwards: Ie, a’r teimlad yna, p’un ai ydy hynny’n wir ai peidio, dyna’r canfyddiad. Ond dylai fe fod, nid dim ond yn hawl ar bapur, dylai fod yn hawl yn weithredol.		Ms Edwards: Yes, that feeling, and whether that’s true or not, that’s the perception. But it should not just be a right on paper, it should be a right that is being exercised.
[121] Cewch chi enghreifftiau o syrjeris doctor ar gau, efallai, bob prynhawn dydd Iau achos hyfforddiant staff. Nawr, ni allwn ni wneud hynny, achos mae yna broblem wrth drio ymestyn y pum diwrnod hyfforddiant mewn sydd statudol i saith diwrnod, achos mae yna ofid am yr effaith ar deuluoedd. Ond mae’n rhaid i ni ddod rownd y sefyllfa hyn rhyw ffordd ac, wrth gwrs, mae yna gost os oes yna angen cyflenwi ar gyfer rhyddhau athrawon. Ond, er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni’n rhoi rhywbeth i bobl sydd yn statudol, byddai hynny’n gorfod cynnwys pobl sy’n cyflenwi.		You have examples of doctors’ surgeries closed on a Thursday afternoon, for example, due to staff training. We can’t do that because there’s a problem if we try and extend the in-service training to seven days, because of the impact on families. But we must get around this somehow, and of course, there’s a cost implication in order to provide cover to release teachers for training. But, to ensure that we provide statutory training, that must include people who are supply teachers.
[122] Mr Hathway: I think that we’d have to have a discussion about how it works, because I wouldn’t want to commit to—.
[123] Simon Thomas: I wasn’t expecting that from you this morning. [Laughter.]
[124] Mr Hathway: —a pay-related scale or whatever, but I think the principle of—.
[125] Simon Thomas: Are we looking long term here?
[126] Mr Hathway: Yes. I think if all the barriers were taken away and everyone was given equal access, equal opportunity and readily available, quality-assured professional development, I think the principle of professional improvement—however that is couched—hand in hand with professional development is one that the profession would accept. Actually it’s one that they would welcome as well. If it meant that they could access professional development and the responsibility was on them to reach certain targets, but there was fair access to it and it was good-quality professional development, I don’t think you’d have an argument from them.
[127] Simon Thomas: Particularly if the profession was itself part of developing that professional development, and leading on it.
[128] Mr Hathway: Exactly.
[129] Ann Jones: Okay, thanks. We have supply agencies, and Bethan’s got several questions—well, four or five question on this. Still, I’ll have to appeal for very short answers. So, if you’ve already said something earlier in evidence, can you not repeat it on this? Can we try and get some new evidence on this? Thanks.
[130] Bethan Jenkins: Rwy’n credu bod lot o’r materion wedi cael eu delio â nhw, ond jest er mwyn cadarnhau beth ŷch chi’n credu yw’r effaith mae defnyddio asiantaethau cyflenwi yn ei gael ar systemau awdurdodau a sut maen nhw’n goruchwylio yn systematig. Achos rydym ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth fod secretaries neu’r business leaders yn delio â’r asiantaethau ac—fel rydych chi wedi ei ddweud—mae’n dibynnu ar gost yn hytrach nag ar ansawdd.		Bethan Jenkins: I believe that a lot of the issues have already been covered, but just to confirm what you think the impact of using supply agencies has on the systems that the LEAs have and how they actually oversee the system systematically. We’ve heard evidence that the secretaries or business leaders deal with the agencies and—as you’ve said—it’s cost driven rather than quality driven.
[131] Mr Hathway: Yes. I don’t want to go over too much old ground, but I think that, in terms of the impact that supply agencies have had on the individuals, I think they’ve become—. The morale has been hit, standards have been hit in terms of their access to CPD, obviously, so they’re failing to keep up to date with the new initiatives that have been brought in, which have been numerous in the last few years, and will be numerous in the next few years with the changes to the curriculum. I think local authorities are completely detached from the individuals working in the supply chain in their areas, so they don’t necessarily have a full understanding of the competencies or the gaps in terms of knowledge and skills that certain schools need to fill that are available through supply, because they’ve basically delegated it to supply agencies.
[132] Bethan Jenkins: Rwy’n credu gyda phensiynau hefyd a’r materion termau gwaith hefyd rydych chi wedi sôn amdanynt—.		Bethan Jenkins: I believe with pensions too and the terms and conditions of employment issues that you mentioned—.
[133] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu ei bod e oherwydd bod pobl nawr yn gorfod gweithio trwy asiantaethau. Nid oes dewis. Mewn nifer o leoliadau yng Nghymru, os nad ydyn nhw’n mynd trwy asiantaeth, chawn nhw ddim gwaith. Mae mor syml â hynny. Felly, maen nhw’n gorfod derbyn y telerau mae’r asiantaeth yn eu cynnig. Nid yw’r ysgolion yn gwybod faint o cut mae’r asiant yn cael o’r ffi maen nhw’n ei dalu. Mae’r ysgol yn talu ffi i’r asiant, a nid ydyn nhw’n gwybod beth yn union yw cyflog yr unigolyn. Os ŷch chi’n gwybod eich bod yn cael £65 y dydd a’ch bod hefyd yn marcio a pharatoi gwersi, ond mae athro sydd ar delerau eraill yn cael y tâl llawn, mae hynny bownd o effeithio ar forâl, ac mae bownd o effeithio ar safonau hefyd, a faint o ymdrech rŷch chi’n mynd i roi mewn i’r gwaith rŷch chi’n mynd i wneud i’r ysgol honno. Mae hynny’n issue mawr.		Ms Edwards: I think it’s because people now have to work through agencies. They don’t have an option. In a number of locations in Wales, if they don’t go through an agency, they won’t get any work. It’s as simple as that. So, they have to accept the terms and conditions offered by the agency. Schools don’t know how much of a cut the agencies get of the fee. The schools pay the agency a fee, and they don’t know the exact salary of the individual. If you know that you get £65 per day, and that you also mark and prepare lessons, but a teacher on different terms receives full pay, that’s bound to have an impact on morale and also on standards and the amount of effort that you put into the work that you do for that school. That is a big issue.
[134] Hefyd, mae problemau ar gyfer y dyfodol fan hyn, achos nid oes mynediad at bensiwn. Nid oes hawl ganddynt i berthyn i’r cynllun pensiwn athrawon—nid oes cyfraniad yn mynd i fynd wrth yr asiantaethau. Mae’n bosib, gyda’r auto enrolment sy’n gorfod digwydd, gan ddibynnu ar fel bydd yr asiantaethau wedi’u cyflogi nhw, byddant yn gorfod rhoi mynediad at ryw fath o gynllun pensiwn—gwael, siŵr o fod—iddyn nhw; y gwaethaf posib, byddwn i’n ei feddwl.		There are also problems for the future here, because there is no access to a pension. They have no right to join the teachers’ pension scheme—no contribution is made by the agencies. It’s possible, with the auto enrolment that has to happen, depending on how they’re being employed by agencies, that they will have to give them access to some sort of pension scheme—a poor one, probably; the worst possible, I would think.
[135] Simon Thomas: Stakeholder pension.
[136] Ms Edwards: Ie. Ond mae’n dibynnu fel y bydden nhw wedi cael eu cyflogi, achos mae rhai’n cael eu cyflogi fel pe baent yn hunangyflogedig. So, rwy’n credu bod y rhan fwyaf o asiantaethau wedi ffeindio ffyrdd o ddod rownd pob math o reolau ynglŷn â’r cytundebau maen nhw’n eu rhoi. Mae pobl sydd yn dod i’r proffesiwn am y tro cyntaf, sydd ddim wedi gweithio yn y system cynt, yn teimlo fel eu bod yn gorfod bod yn ddiolchgar i gael diwrnod o waith, ac yn cael rhywbeth rhwng £65 ac efallai £100 amdano fe, ond nid ydyn nhw’n ystyried bod hynny cyn treth ac ati.		Ms Edwards: Yes. But it all depends on how they are employed, because some of them are employed as if they were self-employed. So, I think the majority of agencies have found a way of getting around all kinds of rules regarding the contracts that they give. People who enter the profession for the first time, who haven’t worked in the system previously, feel as if they have to be grateful that they get a day’s work, and get somewhere between £65 and £100 perhaps for it, but they don’t consider that that is before tax and so on.
[137] Hefyd, mae rhai asiantaethau wedi dechrau cynnig rhyw fath o hyfforddiant, ac rwy’n credu bod hynny’n fwy i allu dweud, ‘Rydym ni’n gallu cynnig bach mwy i chi nag yw’r asiantaeth yna’n gallu ei wneud’ er mwyn cael rhywun ar eu llyfrau nhw, nag yw oherwydd gofid. Efallai fy mod i’n edrych ar yr ochr dywyll fan hyn. Ond, hefyd, maen nhw’n amddifadu cyfrifoldeb am yr unigolion pan fo cyhuddiad yn dod. Rhywbryd neu’i gilydd, mae pob ysgol yn clywed rhyw broblem gyda rhieni yn dweud bod problem wedi bod gyda phlentyn. Os ydy hynny’n digwydd ac mae’r athro wedi cyflogi trwy asiantaeth, mae’r ysgol yn gorfod dweud wrth yr asiantaeth, a beth sy’n digwydd fel rheol yw nad yw asiantaeth yn ymchwilio fel y bydd cyflogwr yn gorfod ei wneud; maen nhw’n tynnu’r person bant o’u rhestr ac yn eu cyfeirio nhw’n syth at y cyngor addysgu. Mae hynny’n golygu bod arian y cyhoedd yn cael ei ddefnyddio, achos mae’r cyngor addysgu wedyn yn gwneud y cam cyntaf o ymchwilio. Gan amlaf, maen nhw’n ffeindio nad oes achos, ond maen nhw’n gorfod gwneud yr ymchwiliad a fyddai, fel rheol, wedi digwydd yn yr ysgol. Felly, mae mwy o broblemau.		Also, some agencies have started offering some type of training, and I think it’s more for them to be able to say, ‘We can offer you a little bit more than that agency can’ so that they can get people onto their books, than because they’re concerned. Maybe I’m being a little pessimistic here. But, also, they don’t take responsibility for that individual when there is an accusation. At some stage or another, every school hears about some sort of problem with parents saying that there’s an issue with a child. If that happens and the teacher is employed through an agency, then the school has to tell the agency, and what happens then is that the agency doesn’t investigate as an employer would have to do; they take the person off their list and refer them directly to the general teaching council. That means that public money is used, because the general teaching council then takes the first steps in terms of investigation. More often than not, they find that there is no basis for the complaint, but they still have to undertake an investigation that would normally happen within the school. So, there are more problems.
[138] Yn y cyfamser, mae’r athro cyflenwi hynny yn methu â gweithio i’r asiantaeth yna, ac fel rheol ddim yn gallu gweithio i asiantaeth arall, ac yn cael yr holl ofid eu bod nhw wedi cael eu cyfeirio at y cyngor addysgu, ac efallai bod eu gyrfa, yn y dyfodol, yn y fantol, os nad ydyn nhw’n gallu profi—		In the meantime, that supply teacher isn’t able to work for that agency, and usually is unable to work for another agency, and is under all this stress that they’ve been referred to the general teaching council, which may put their future career at risk, if they can’t prove—
[139] Bethan Jenkins: Pan wnes i godi hynny gydag Estyn, nid oedden nhw’n gweld problem gyda hynny. Roedden nhw’n dweud, ‘Wel, mae yna brosesau yn eu lle a dyna’r broses ar gyfer athrawon asiantaethau’. Beth fyddech chi’n ei wneud yn wahanol, felly? Ai fyddai pŵl o athrawon yr ateb, ac i’r asiantaethau gael eu rheoleiddio o fewn y pŵl sy’n cael ei redeg gan yr awdurdodau lleol, felly?		Bethan Jenkins: When I raised that with Estyn, they didn’t see any problem with that. They said, ‘Well, there’s a process in place and that’s the process for the supply teachers’. So, what would you do differently? Would a pool of teachers be the solution, and for the agencies to be regulated within the pool run by the local authorities, there?
10:45
[140] Ms Edwards: Rwy’n credu—. Pan ddaethon nhw gyntaf i Gymru, roedd gennym ni’r marc ansawdd—marc ansawdd y REC. Cafodd hwnnw ei ddileu yn 2011 achos nid oedd e’n fit for purpose. Un o’r problemau oedd ei fod yn grêt i ysgolion, o ran ei fod yn diogelu ysgolion a phlant, ac mae hynny’n hollbwysig, ond nid oedd e’n diogelu’n gweithwyr o gwbl. Nid oedd e’n rhoi hawliau digonol i’r gweithwyr o gwbl, a dyna’r broblem sydd gyda ni. Mae e bron fel petai’n race to the bottom, onid yw?		Ms Edwards: I think—. When they first came to Wales, we had the quality mark—the REC quality mark. That was abolished in 2011 because it wasn’t fit for purpose. One of the problems was that it was great for schools, in that it protected schools and children, which is key, but it didn’t protect our workers at all. It didn’t give sufficient rights to the workers, and that’s the problem that we have. It’s almost as if it’s a race to the bottom, isn’t it?
[141] Bethan Jenkins: Beth fyddai’r ateb, felly?		Bethan Jenkins: So, what would be the answer?
[142] Ms Edwards: Mae eisiau mwy o reolaeth arnom ni, fel oedd gyda ni pan oedd yr awdurdodau lleol—. Mae’n haws ei wneud e nawr achos mae yna systemau cyfrifiadurol i gael nawr lle mae bobl yn gallu gofrestru. Nid oes angen lot o—. Unwaith mae wedi cael ei osod, nid oes angen lot o arian na mewnbwn gan yr awdurdodau lleol eu hunain. Mae pethau’n gallu cael eu cadw arlein. Mae bwcio yn gallu digwydd arlein. Mae cymaint o dechnoleg ar gael nawr nad oedd ar gael 25 mlynedd yn ôl, fe fydd yn mynd i’w wneud yn haws i allu gwneud hynny. Mae’r consortia a’r safonau—. Byddai modd gwneud rhywbeth fel hyn ar lefel ranbarthol, hyd yn oed, achos mae lot o’n hathrawon ni yn gweithio mewn mwy nag un sir.		Ms Edwards: We need more control, as we had when local authorities—. It’s easier to do it now because there are computerised systems available now where people can register. You don’t need a lot of—. Once it’s set up, you don’t need a lot of money or input from local authorities themselves. Things can be kept online. You can book online. There is so much technology available now that was not available 25 years ago that it is going to make it easier to do that. There are consortia and the standards—. This could be done on a regional level, even, because some of our teachers work in more than one county.
[143] Ann Jones: I’m going to be very generous and let Aled and Simon make two very, very brief points.
[144] Aled Roberts: Roedd yna feirniadaeth yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â’r cytundeb fframwaith yma a’r ffaith ei fod wedi cael ei drin jest fel cytundeb caffael gan y Llywodraeth. Nid oedd sôn am ansawdd—jest am gost. Mae yna gytundeb fframwaith newydd yn dod i mewn. A ydych chi’n ymwybodol fod yr adran addysg neu’r proffesiwn wedi cael unrhyw fath o fewnbwn, achos mae rhai o’r materion yma, fel materion disgyblu?		Aled Roberts: There was criticism last week as regards this framework agreement and the fact that it has been treated just like a procurement contract by the Government. There was no mention of quality—just cost. There is a new framework agreement coming in. Are you aware that the education department or the profession has had any input, because it covers some of these issues, such as disciplinary issues?
[145] Ms Edwards: Na.		Ms Edwards: No.
[146] Aled Roberts: Diffyg o ran y cytundeb fframwaith ydy lot o hyn.		Aled Roberts: A lot of this is a deficiency in the framework agreement.
[147] Ms Edwards: Ie.		Ms Edwards: Yes.
[148] Ann Jones: Simon.
[149] Simon Thomas: Cwestiwn byr, er efallai na fydd yr ateb yn fyr. A ydy’r undebau erioed wedi ystyried, gyda’i gilydd, ffurfio asiantaethau amgen eu hunain y tu mewn i Gymru, a gwneud hynny fel opsiwn, yn hytrach na mynd i lawr y llwybr rŷm ni wedi mynd i lawr yng Nghymru, gan ein bod yn gwybod fod llefydd eraill wedi dewis yn amgen?		Simon Thomas: A brief question, although the answer might not be. [Laughter.] Have the unions ever considered, together, forming their own alternative agencies within Wales, and making that an option, rather than going down the path that we’ve gone down in Wales, given that we know that other areas have made alternative choices?
[150] Mr Hathway: Funnily enough, when we used to raise this with the former Minister, his response was, ‘Why don’t you form your own agency?’
[151] Simon Thomas: I might have remembered that.
[152] Mr Hathway: I don’t think there would be the capacity to do it. Also, I think there’s a conflict of interest there if we were to do it.
[153] Bethan Jenkins: Yes. You’re representing those people.
[154] Mr Hathway: Exactly. I don’t think it would be right for—
[155] Simon Thomas: Should Government do it, then?
[156] Ms Edwards: Roeddwn ond yn mynd i ddweud, pan oedd y cyn-Weinidog yn cynnig hynny, beth oeddem yn ei ystyried oedd bod hynny fel petai byd addysg Cymru yn amddifadu cyfrifoldeb ac yn dweud, ‘Rhowch e i rywun arall’. Mae’n rhaid i rywun fynd i’r afael â hyn. Mae’r bobl hyn yn cyfrannu at fyd addysg Cymru gyfan a nid oes cyflogwr gyda nhw. Felly, byddwn i’n dweud bod yn rhaid i’r Llywodraeth edrych yn ofalus ar beth gall y Llywodraeth ei wneud i sicrhau eu bod yn cael y gefnogaeth.		Ms Edwards: I was just about to say that, when the previous Minister proposed that, what we considered was that it was as if the education sector in Wales was refusing to take responsibility and saying, ‘Give it to someone else’. Someone has to tackle this. These people contribute to the education sector in the whole of Wales and they do not have a direct employer. So, I would say that the Government needs to look very carefully at what the Government can do to ensure that they get the support.
[157] Ann Jones: Bethan, had you finished?
[158] Bethan Jenkins: Yes.
[159] Ann Jones: Oh, that’s good. [Laughter.] Well, we’ve arrived at a position, I think, where I’ve forced everybody to finish the questioning. So, can I thank you both very much for the evidence? We’ll send you a copy of the transcript to check for accuracy. So, if you could just check that and let us know, so that we can publish it as part of the inquiry. Thank you both very much.
[160] If the committee is okay with it, we will break until 11 a.m., which means that we’re now running half an hour late. Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:49 ac 11:00. The meeting adjourned between 10:49 and 11:00.
Ymchwiliad i Waith Athrawon Cyflenwi—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 3 Inquiry into Supply Teaching—Evidence Session 3
[161] Ann Jones: Can I just ask you, if you’ve switched your mobile phone on, can you make sure it’s on silent please, after this break? Just before we start this session with the Welsh Local Government Association, I think Members ought to know that we were hoping that the WLGA could have brought a local education authority rep, but unfortunately that’s not been able to—. The WLGA haven’t been able to find anybody to accompany them. We’ve also asked for some additional information from the WLGA around the amount spent on supply teaching for each local authority during each of the financial years over the last three years, the number of days covered by supply teachers for each local authority over the same period, the level of sickness absence of teaching staff in schools for each local authority over the same period of time, and the role of local authorities in managing sickness absence. I understand that, unfortunately, the WLGA are not able to provide that information, as it isn’t something that is routinely held or collected, so I think that the committee will need to explore that further as a committee, either through this session now, or with the WLGA, or with others, to try to find that information. So, we’ll do that as well. I just think that that’s the context in which we’re approaching this evidence session.
[162] So, with that, thank you very much, and I do apologise that we’re running late. Perhaps you’d like to introduce yourselves for the record and then we’ll go to some questions.
[163] Dr Llewelyn: Chris Llewelyn, director of lifelong learning at the WLGA.
[164] Ms Seabourne: Daisy Seabourne, lifelong learning team manager.
[165] Ann Jones: Okay, thanks very much. We’ve got four areas we want to explore: the role of local authorities, the use of supply teachers, continuous professional development and performance management, and supply agencies. So, those are the four areas that we’re going to go through. Keith, do you want to take the role of the local authorities first, please?
[166] Keith Davies: Diolch, Gadeirydd, a bore da. Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth wrth undebau, tystiolaeth wrth athrawon cyflenwi, tystiolaeth wrth benaethiaid ysgol, a beth sy’n ganolog, rwy’n credu, i’r holl beth yw bod yn well ganddynt fynd yn ôl i’r system o gael yr awdurdodau lleol yn edrych ar ôl athrawon cyflenwi ac nid yr asiantaethau preifat hyn. Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth wedyn o’r Cyngor Sefton, sydd wedi cael cytundeb am dair blynedd ar athrawon cyflenwi. Mae un o’r undebau athrawon yn dweud bod hwn yn gweithio’n dda iawn yn Sefton. So, y cwestiwn gennyf yw: oni ddylem fod yn meddwl y dylai’r awdurdodau lleol fod â chyfrifoldeb am athrawon cyflenwi unwaith eto, neu’r consortia? Beth sydd yn erbyn hynny? Achos nid ydym ni’n cael yr ateb yna wrth yr awdurdodau, ac mae rhyw gontract cenedlaethol nawr gyda’r un o’r asiantaethau preifat hyn. Wel, mae pawb yn anhapus yna, so pam na allwn ni wneud rhywbeth? Mae Lloegr yn arwain yma mewn un cyngor. Pam na allwn ni wneud yr un peth yng Nghymru?		Keith Davies: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. We’ve received evidence from the unions and from supply teachers and from school heads, and what is common to all that evidence, I think, is that they would prefer to return to the system of having the local authorities in charge of supply teachers, and not these private agencies. We’ve received evidence from Sefton Council, which has a three-year agreement on supply teachers, and one of the teaching unions said that it’s working very well in Sefton. So, the question that I have is: shouldn’t we be considering giving the responsibility for supply teachers to the local authorities once again, or to the consortia? What is the counter argument to that? Because we haven’t been given that response from the authorities, and there’s a national agreement now with one of these private agencies. Well, nobody seems happy with that, so why can’t we do something. England is leading on this in one council. Why can’t we do the same here in Wales?
[167] Dr Llewelyn: Os wnaf ymateb yn gyntaf, cyn imi ddechrau, a allaf ymddiheuro i’r Cadeirydd, a hefyd i’r pwyllgor, nad ydym ni wedi cael cyfarwyddwr addysg yma gennym heddiw? Fe wnaethom ni drio cael rhywun. Mae’n amser prysur o ran cyllidebau, a hefyd mae yna gyfarfodydd cenedlaethol yn cymryd lle, ond, a bod y pwyllgor yn dymuno, fe allem ni drio trefnu bod ni’n cael cyfarwyddwr yn y dyfodol. Rwy’n dweud hynny achos ein bod ni wedi trafod y materion yma gyda rhyw bellter hyd-braich, fel petai, ac rwy’n credu y byddai fe’n ddefnyddiol ichi fel pwyllgor i glywed wrth gyfarwyddwr sy’n delio â’r pethau yma yn feunyddiol ac yn ymarferol.		Dr Llewelyn: If I could respond first of all, before I start, can I apologise to the Chair, and also the committee, that the director of education isn’t with us today? We did try and get someone to come with us. It is a very busy time in relation to budgets, and also there are national meetings taking place, but, if the committee wishes, we can try to arrange to get a director present in the future. I say that because we discussed these issues at arm’s length, so to speak, and I think it would be useful for you as a committee to hear from a director who deals with these issues on a daily basis and in practice.
[168] O ran y sefyllfa bresennol, mae’r system addysg—. Ar yr un llaw, mae cyfrifoldeb ar awdurdodau lleol o ran codi safonau, gwella perfformiad, ac yn y blaen, ond mae’r system addysg yn symud at sefyllfa lle mae’r gwahanol elfennau yn y system yn cymryd mwy o gyfrifoldeb am godi eu safonau eu hunain—hynny yw, mae mwy o gyfrifoldeb ar ddisgyblion, athrawon, ysgolion, ac yn y blaen. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, rydym yn symud at sefyllfa lle mae mwy o’r arian sy’n dod at awdurdodau lleol yn cael ei ddirprwyo i ysgolion, sydd eto yn digwydd am resymau dilys, fel bod penderfyniadau ynglŷn â sut mae arian yn cael ei wario, ac yn y blaen, yn cael ei wneud mor agos ag sy’n bosibl i’r pwynt lle mae’r gwasanaethau hynny yn cael eu darparu. Eto, mae rhesymau dilys am hynny. Rydym yn gweld yr un patrwm yn cymryd lle ar draws y byd. Mae systemau addysg llwyddiannus yn dirprwyo mwy o gyfrifoldebau a phenderfyniadau i lawr tuag at ysgolion. Felly, mae’r sefyllfa bresennol yn rhan o’r broses hynny.		In terms of the current position, the education system—. On the one hand, there is a responsibility on the local authorities in terms of improving standards, and so on, but the education system is moving towards a situation where the various elements of the system are taking more responsibility for raising standards themselves—that is, there is greater responsibility placed upon pupils, teachers, schools and so on. Also, of course, we are moving towards a situation where more of the money that comes to the local authorities is delegated to schools, and that is happening for valid reasons, so that the decisions regarding how money is being spent, and so on, are being taken as close as possible to the point of delivery. Again, there are valid reasons for doing that. We see the same pattern developing across the world. Successful education systems delegate more responsibilities and decisions to the schools. So, the current situation is part of that process.
[169] Rydym hefyd yn ymwybodol, pan fydd pwysau ariannol ar y system, fod hynny hefyd yn gwthio pethau i lawr tuag at ysgolion. Mae budd ariannol o ddefnyddio asiantaethau. Dyna pam, rwy’n credu, rydym ni wedi cyrraedd y sefyllfa rydym ni ynddi ar hyn o bryd. O ran y sefyllfa gyda Sefton a’r cytundeb tair blynedd, nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth rwy’n gyfarwydd ag e; ni fyddwn i’n ymwybodol o’r manylder. Mae’n bosibl ei fod yn rhywbeth y gallwn edrych arno, ond byddwn i’n meddwl ei fod yn anochel, pan fyddwn ni mewn sefyllfa lle mae arian cyhoeddus yn dynn, mae cyllidebau yn dynn, ac mae pob elfen o’r system yn edrych i gael gwerth am arian, ein bod ni wedi dilyn y trywydd yna o weithredu trwy asiantaethau yn hytrach, efallai, na’r patrwm arferol sydd wedi bodoli yn y gorffennol.		We are also aware, when there are financial pressures on the system, that that also pushes things towards schools. There is a financial benefit to using agencies. That is why, I think, we have reached the current situation. With regard to the situation with Sefton and the three-year agreement, that isn’t something that I’m familiar with; I would not be aware of the detail of that. It is possible that it is something that we could look at, but I would think that it is inevitable, when we are in a situation where public money is tight, budgets are tight, and every element of the system is looking to achieve value for money, that we have followed that path of operating through agencies rather than, perhaps, following the usual pattern that has existed in the past.
[170] Keith Davies: Ie, ond, ar un amser—gofynnais i’r undebau nawr, cyn iddyn nhw adael, beth yw’r sefyllfa—roedd ysgolion yn talu am gytundebau yswiriant. Roeddent yn mynd i’r cwmnïau yswiriant, yn talu faint bynnag roeddent yn talu am y flwyddyn, ac wedyn y cwmnïau yna oedd yn talu am yr athrawon cyflenwi. Felly, rwy’n credu—ond nid wyf yn sicr o hyn—mai efallai dyna sy’n digwydd yn Sefton, sef fod yr ysgolion a’r awdurdod wedi cytuno a bod system ganddynt nawr lle mae’r ysgolion yn cyfrannu tuag at y gost, ac wedyn mae Sefton â’r athrawon cyflenwi sydd ar gael. Rwy’n derbyn beth rwyt ti’n ei ddweud; o’r blaen, gyda ni ym Morgannwg Ganol, nid wy’n cofio faint o athrawon cyflenwi oedd gyda ni, ond roedd yr awdurdod yn talu. Mae’r arian yn yr ysgolion nawr, ond mae’r ysgolion—ac mae rhai ysgolion o hyd, yn ôl yr undebau y bore yma a ddywedodd mewn ateb i fi—â chytundeb yswiriant gyda rhywun. A allwn ni drio hynny gydag awdurdodau yng Nghymru, neu gyda’r consortia? Nid wy’n dweud dim ond jest yr awdurdod, ond nad ydym ni’n rhoi’r arian i’r cwmnïau preifat, achos maen nhw’n gwneud elw ac nid ydynt yn chwarae’n deg gyda’r athrawon cyflenwi.		Keith Davies: Yes, but, at one time—and I asked the unions, before they left, what the position was—schools paid for insurance contracts. They approached the insurance companies, paying however much they paid for the year, and then it was those companies that paid for the supply teachers. So, I believe—but I am not certain of this—that that is probably what is happening in Sefton, that the schools and the authority have come to an agreement and that they now have a system whereby schools contribute towards the cost, and then Sefton has the supply teachers who are available. I accept what you said; previously, in my experience in Mid Glamorgan, I cannot remember how many supply teachers we had, but the authority paid. The money is in the schools now, but the schools—and some schools still, according to the unions this morning, who said this in response to a question from me—have an insurance contract with someone. Could we try that with authorities in Wales, or with the consortia? I’m not saying just the authority, but that we don’t give this funding to private companies, because they are profit-making and they do not treat the supply teachers fairly.
[171] Dr Llewelyn: O ran y polisïau yswiriant, mae’r rheini’n bodoli. Yn ôl yr hyn rwy’n ei ddeall, gan amlaf, mae pum diwrnod cyn bod y polisi’n weithredol, ac mae awdurdodau—. Er enghraifft, rwy’n credu, yng Ngheredigion, fod ysgolion yn prynu i mewn i’r gwasanaeth yna, sy’n cael ei redeg ar draws yr awdurdod, trwy Geredigion yn ganolog. Felly, mae’n fy nharo i fod yna bosibiliadau. Fel roeddwn yn sôn, o ran y manylder, nid wyf cweit yn siŵr, ond, mewn egwyddor, rwy’n siŵr ei fod yn rhywbeth y mae’n bosibl i holi ymhellach amdano ynglŷn â sut mae’n gweithio.		Dr Llewelyn: With regard to the insurance policies, those do exist. From what I gather, more often than not, there are five days before the policy is implemented, and authorities—. For example, I believe that, in Ceredigion, schools buy into that service, which is run across the authority, throughout Ceredigion, from the centre. So, it strikes me that there are possibilities. As I mentioned, with regard to the detail, I am not absolutely certain, but in principle, I’m sure that it is something that we could investigate further with regard to the way in which it works.
[172] Keith Davies: Iawn, diolch.		Keith Davies: Fine, thank you.
[173] Ann Jones: Simon, was it on that point of insurance?
[174] Simon Thomas: It was related to that.
[175] Ann Jones: You do that and then I’ll come to Suzy, because Suzy’s got some more questions.
[176] Simon Thomas: Y cwestiwn roeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn oedd—. Roeddwn yn edrych ar y dystiolaeth y gwnaethoch chi ei chyflwyno i’r pwyllgor, ac nid oes sôn yn y fan yna am yr asiantaethau hyn. Mae’r asiantaethau, mae’n ymddangos i mi, yn dod ag elfen o elw preifat i mewn i’r system yma, rhywbeth y mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi dweud nad oeddent yn dymuno’i gyflwyno i wasanaethau cyhoeddus. A oes trafodaeth wedi bod erioed y tu fewn i’r gymdeithas neu gyda’r awdurdodau lleol i ffurfio asiantaeth genedlaethol ar y cyd rhwng awdurdodau lleol—Sefton mawr, os liciwch chi, yn y cyd-destun hwnnw—fel sy’n digwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, ac felly i gadw’r arian yma a chadw’r rheolaeth dros ddatblygu proffesiynol hefyd y tu fewn i gwmpawd awdurdodau lleol?		Simon Thomas: The question that I wanted to ask was—. I read the evidence that you submitted to the committee, but there is no mention there of these agencies. The agencies, it appears to me, bring an element of private profit into this system, something that the Welsh Local Government Association had said it didn’t wish to introduce to public services. Has there ever been a discussion within the association or with the local authorities to establish a national agency jointly between local authorities—a major Sefton, if you like, in that context—as has happened in Northern Ireland, so that we can retain the funding and control for professional development within the scope of local authorities?
[177] Dr Llewelyn: Ar lefel ffurfiol, hyd y gwn i, nid oes trafodaeth ffurfiol wedi bod. Ond, mae yna drafodaeth gyson ynglŷn â’r system athrawon cyflenwi a sut i sicrhau’r gwerth gorau am arian am y buddsoddiad sy’n cymryd lle, a beth yw’r drefn orau. Efallai mai un o’r pethau i’w ystyried yw bod yna gwestiwn athronyddol a gwleidyddol ynglŷn â’r defnydd o gwmnïau preifat, a’r elw ac yn y blaen. Ond, o ran y lefel ymarferol, mae’r asiantaethau yn hwyluso’r broses. Hefyd, pan fo cyllidebau yn dynn, mae asiantaethau yn rhoi ffordd i ysgolion gwrdd â’r galw.		Dr Llewelyn: On a formal level, as far as I know, there has been no formal discussion. But, there is a regular discussion on the supply teacher system and how to ensure the best value for the investment which is made, and what the best system would be. Maybe one thing to consider is that there is a philosophical and political question regarding the use of private companies, and the profit and so on. But, on a practical level, the agencies do facilitate the process. Also, when budgets are tight, agencies provide a way for schools to meet demand.
[178] Simon Thomas: Nid wyf yn gwadu hynny o gwbl; gofyn ydw i pam nad ydych chi—hynny yw, awdurdodau lleol—wedi ffurfio asiantaethau eich hunain. Gan fod gyda chi Lywodraeth sy’n sôn am ffafrio cytundebau lleol a ffafrio co-operatives ac ati, ewch ati i gystadlu yn y modd yna.		Simon Thomas: I don’t deny that at all; I’m just asking why you as local authorities haven’t established your own agencies. As you have a Government that favours local contracts and co-operatives and so on, you could compete in that way.
[179] Dr Llewelyn: Fel roeddwn yn sôn, hyd y gwn i, nid yw’r drafodaeth yna wedi cymryd lle. Yn bendant, mae’n rhywbeth sydd yn bosib, ac efallai ei fod yn rhywbeth y gellid ei drafod gyda rhyw Lywodraeth yn y dyfodol efallai.		Dr Llewelyn: As I mentioned, as far as I’m aware, that discussion hasn’t taken place. Certainly, it’s something that is possible, and it’s something that could be discussed with some future Government perhaps.
[180] Ann Jones: Suzy, then Aled.
[181] Suzy Davies: Thank you, Chair. You mentioned in your first answer to Keith that local authorities, as well as schools and consortia, have a responsibility to raise standards. My question is: if there’s no monitoring and data kept of the different ways that different schools deal with and manage supply teaching, how are you able to judge the effect of different types of absence and different types of supply teaching on pupil outcomes, because, obviously, that’s actually got to be the main focus of raising standards?
[182] Dr Llewelyn: The point I was trying to make earlier was that authorities have a general responsibility and clearly an interest in terms of raising standards, school improvement and improving outcomes, and so on. In this instance, the statutory responsibility for employing staff, and so on, is with the headteacher of the school and the governing body. I think Daisy will come in in a moment in terms of the monitoring of the whole range of issues that are involved, and the extent to which that happens. But, the underlying difficulty we always face in education is the impact of the various interventions, and the fact that it is difficult to establish a direct relationship. So, what I suspect happens is that, in terms of the totality of the interventions that have an impact on an educational outcome, despite this—and we know from Estyn and from the Wales Audit Office that this is a significant issue—there are bigger factors that come to bear and other interventions that have attracted more attention hitherto, I think.
[183] Suzy Davies: I accept that there will be a number of reasons why a school might be failing in a particular area, but unless you have a complete picture, which would include an oversight of the effect of the supply of supply teachers, you’re going to come up with a skewed answer whichever response you give to that range of interventions you were talking about. You’ve got to have them all; you can’t just have a few in your purview.
[184] Dr Llewelyn: I understand the point, and the difficulty as well is that it is such a complex picture, and it varies from school to school. Maybe Daisy can comment in terms of the information that is collected.
[185] Ms Seabourne: Just in terms of that information, local authorities do monitor and have an oversight of things like teacher absence and use of supply. What they don’t do, I suppose, is collate that in a way that is easily condensed into national figures. So, in terms of the information that was asked for by the committee, I do have some of that information for some authorities, but what I don’t have is the information for every single local authority. But, I have already agreed with the clerks that I’ll continue to try to get that information for you.
11:15
[186] Ann Jones: That’s helpful, thank you.
[187] Ms Seabourne: Yes. The Welsh Government collects the information at a national level on teacher absence, and then the responsibility for monitoring how absence is covered and why that absence is occurring is down to schools and local authorities. They do work together on that. So, there is an oversight from the local authorities, and increasingly a role for the regional consortia in looking at that, as Chris said, as part of this whole business of improving standards in schools. I think local authorities and consortia do see that as a crucial part, and probably more so in some schools than others. So, if they perhaps would identify a particular school that has a high level of teacher absence or is using supply more frequently than others, they use that comparative data and perhaps go into that school through challenge advisers from the consortia and try to get underneath that to look at the underlying reasons for why that could be happening and look at the impact that that’s having on standards in the school.
[188] Suzy Davies: I was going to say, the correlation of pupil outcomes has got to be the critical part of that.
[189] Ms Seabourne: Absolutely. And the Wales Audit Office and Estyn report that came out in 2013 highlighted that for local authorities. Since publication, we’ve been working with the Welsh Government and local authorities to go through the recommendations in the report and make sure that local authorities and schools are aware of those recommendations and aware of the work that they’ve done on the impact on standards from the use of supply teachers.
[190] Suzy Davies: Well, two years in, I hope that we see some results.
[191] Ann Jones: Yes, okay. Aled.
[192] Aled Roberts: Rwyf eisiau eich cyfeirio chi at yr adroddiad hwnnw oherwydd mae’r adroddiad yn dangos—mae’r ffigurau’n mynd yn ôl i 2011, a bod yn deg—fod yna wahaniaeth o ran absenoldeb salwch yng Nghymru sydd rhwng pedwar a naw diwrnod ar gyfartaledd o fewn cynghorau sir. Mae’n amlwg bod yna lot o bobl yn casglu data, ond yr hyn nad yw’n amlwg yw beth, os unrhyw beth, sy’n cael ei wneud efo’r data hynny. Achos, mi roedd yr adroddiad yn dweud,		Aled Roberts: I’d like to refer you to that report because the report demonstrates—the figures go back to 2011, to be fair—that there is a difference from the point of view of sickness absence in Wales of between four and nine days on average within county councils. It’s evident that there are many people collecting data, but what is not obvious is what, if anything, is being done with that data. Because, the report stated,
[193] ‘nid oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r ysgolion yr ymwelwyd â hwy yn derbyn unrhyw adborth gan yr awdurdod lleol a’u galluogai i gymharu lefelau absenoldeb eu staff â lefelau ysgolion eraill yn yr awdurdod.’		‘most of the schools that we visited did not receive any feedback from the local authority that allowed them to compare their staff absence levels against other schools in the authority.’
[194] O ran ymateb y Llywodraeth, rydych chi wedi dweud bod yna drafodaethau wedi cymryd lle rhwng Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r Llywodraeth i wella’r sefyllfa honno. Ond, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud, fel llywodraethwr ysgol, nad wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw drafodaeth â’m cyngor lleol ynglŷn â’r defnydd o staff cyflenwi, absenoldeb ac effaith hynny, neu unrhyw gwestiynau sydd wedi cael eu gofyn gan un ai’r cyngor neu’r consortia rhanbarthol i herio’r ysgol ar y dadansoddiad sydd yn cael ei wneud. Felly, mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dweud yn eu hymateb eu bod nhw’n mynd i drafod, ond, erbyn hyn, nid ydym ni fel pwyllgor wedi gweld unrhyw fath o ganlyniad i’r trafod hwnnw.		In terms of the Government’s response, you’ve said that there have been discussions between the WLGA and the Government to improve that position. However, I must say, as a school governor, I’m not aware of any discussion with my local council as regards the use of supply staff, absence and any correlation between the two, or any questions being asked by the council or the regional consortia to challenge the school on what analysis has been carried out. Therefore, the Government have said in their response that they will discuss it, but we as a committee have not seen any consequence to that discussion.
[195] Ms Seabourne: Obviously, I can’t comment on your individual school because I don’t know the circumstances, but, since the publication of the report, we sent out the recommendations to all local authorities and asked them to comment on those recommendations. One of the comments that came back was about the use of comparative data. At that point, I don’t think that there were many local authorities using comparative data in that way—so, showing one school from another as to how absence varied across schools. Since that time, it’s my understanding from the authorities that I’ve spoken to that that is being done more. I think that’s also being taken up by the regional consortia.
[196] The other action that’s really taken place since then—and, forgive me, because I don’t know enough of the detail on what’s happened with this—is that the Welsh Government and local authorities, in conjunction, are writing guidance for local authorities and schools on exactly this kind of thing in response to the Wales Audit Office and Estyn report. I’m afraid that I don’t know the detail on that because I haven’t seen the guidance. I believe it’s in draft form.
[197] Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in here?
[198] Ms Seabourne: Yes.
[199] Dr Llewelyn: I think, on the guidance, it is being written at the moment.
[200] Aled Roberts: That’s two years ago—the report.
[201] Ann Jones: Yes.
[202] Dr Llewelyn: Yes. Well, I accept that point, but—
[203] Aled Roberts: It’s not your guidance, so I’m not having a go.
[204] Dr Llewelyn: The guidance is being written. I mean, one of the issues that affects all of this is the fact that, although there is a lot of data and a lot of these issues are being addressed at a local level, there isn’t probably the national consistency, but gradually we are getting there. In terms of the Wales Audit Office report, I accept the point but I think—. Did they look at seven schools? I think so. You know, it isn’t a big sample. I’m not challenging the size of the sample, but, in that sense, they’re reflecting the experiences within those seven schools. The problem with this issue is that there is such variation across Wales, and there is variation between schools and across authorities as well.
[205] Aled Roberts: Mae cwestiwn wedi cael ei ofyn ynglŷn â’r defnydd sy’n cael ei wneud o’r asiantaeth yma a’r modelau eraill. A gaf ofyn—bydd cwestiynau ymhellach ymlaen ar hyn: a oes perygl mai’r prif fwriad yma yw lleihau costau, yn hytrach nag edrych ar ansawdd? Roedd awgrym yr wythnos diwethaf mai’r ffordd roedd y cytundeb fframwaith yma wedi cael ei drafod oedd fel cytundeb caffael cyffredinol llywodraeth leol yn edrych ar dorri costau. Rwyf wedi edrych ar adroddiad un cyngor yn y gogledd, sydd fel eu bod nhw’n brolio bod eu costau cyflenwi yn mynd i leihau o £200,000 y flwyddyn wrth iddyn nhw fabwysiadu’r cytundeb fframwaith yma.		Aled Roberts: A question has been asked about the use that is made of this agency and other models. May I ask—there will be questions on this later: is there a risk that the main intention here is to reduce costs, rather than to consider quality? There was a suggestion last week that the way in which this framework agreement had been negotiated was like an ordinary local government procurement contract looking at cutting costs. I looked at the report of one council in north Wales, and it’s almost as if they’re boasting that their supply costs will be reduced by £200,000 per annum as they adopt this framework agreement.
[206] Dr Llewelyn: Mae yna gydbwysedd, byddwn yn meddwl, onid oes e? Hynny yw, bod rhywun yn gorfod edrych ar y costio, ond hefyd ar yr effeithiau. Beth rydym drwy’r amser yn sicrhau yw ein bod yn ychwanegu gwerth a’n bod ni’n cael y gwerth gorau am y buddsoddiad. Felly, nid yw e bob amser yn ateb syml. Ond os taw’r bwriad yw anelu at godi safonau a gwella’n deilliannau ac yn y blaen, dyna beth ddylai fod yn arwain y ffordd y mae’r polisïau’n cael eu gweithredu.		Dr Llewelyn: There is a balance, I would think, isn’t there? That is, one needs to look at the costings, but also at the impacts. What we always ensure is that we are adding value and that we have the best value for the investment that is taking place. So, it’s not always a simple answer. But if the intention is to raise standards and improve outcomes and so on, that is what should be leading the way in which the policies are implemented.
[207] Ms Seabourne: In terms of the quality of the staff and the cover of supply staff, we’ve got several examples of local authorities that have preferred providers, so they work across a local authority with one provider. And what they have with that—I’ve seen some of the detail on this—is that they’ll meet on a regular basis with that provider, talk about feedback from the schools on the quality of the supply teacher and work with them. And I think where you have that preferred provider relationship, yes it does obviously have an impact on costs, because that provider with obviously try and provide it at a more favourable cost because they’ll be covering a whole authority area, but what you can also do in that situation, when you don’t have multiple agencies to deal with—and from a local authority point of view, that’s obviously quite challenging—and if you have one provider, is you can have those kinds of regular meetings, regular feedback on the quality of the supply cover. We’re seeing that in several local authorities at the moment.
[208] Aled Roberts: I think it would be helpful if you could provide examples of that feedback, because the impression we’re gaining at the moment is that there isn’t any feedback.
[209] Ms Seabourne: We can, yes.
[210] Ann Jones: That would be helpful. Aled, I’m going to take continuous professional development next and performance management and then I’ll come back to yours on supply teachers. David, have you got a point on that as well?
[211] David Rees: Particularly on that point, yes.
[212] Ann Jones: Yes, and then you can go into yours on this.
[213] David Rees: I’m very interested in the question on the feedback, because performance management is one aspect I can see you’re keen on. The detail in your paper doesn’t tell me feedback on what. Is it feedback on the performance in the school or feedback to the actual individual teacher? How do we manage the performance of individual teachers, and shouldn’t local authorities now have a role in that aspect, because these individuals are coming in to do work in the schools under the local authority’s control? So, what performance management mechanisms are the local authorities looking at to put into place for supply teachers?
[214] Ms Seabourne: As Chris said at the beginning, it would be ideal if we had an education director here who could provide you with that kind of day-to-day operational experience. So, perhaps if we can bring some additional evidence to show, along with the information on the preferred providers, we can provide you with that detail. It’s my understanding as well, though, that schools and local authorities do find this quite challenging. Obviously, if you’ve got supply teachers that are in a school for a long period, for example, through planned absence, then actually integrating that supply teacher into training, as well as performance management, working with the agencies, is a lot easier to do than if you’re just covering a week here and there. So, I think there are different circumstances where you would probably take a different approach. But I think local authorities and schools do acknowledge that that’s actually a really challenging thing to cover.
[215] Ann Jones: Do you want to go on, David?
[216] David Rees:  I’ll go on, if that’s okay. You mentioned the integration into training, and performance management leads into training needs identification and enhancement of individual skills to ensure that they’re able to provide the education to our children at the right level, with the right knowledge. Where’s the local authority’s position in actually organising, providing and supporting supply teachers to undertake that CPD? We are seeing CPD becoming critical; the Minister’s announced the new deal for the education workforce, which requires a learning passport, and that’s going to become an element that is going to be critical to all the profession, whether they’re permanently employed in the school or are a supply.
[217] Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in first on that? I heard some of your earlier discussion with Elaine and Owen in terms of the CPD issue. I think, as I mentioned earlier, the education system is moving towards a situation where the various elements in the system take more responsibility for their own improvement, which means we’re looking towards developing the idea of the self-improving school with more school-to-school support, peer support and so on. What we also know is that, in some of the best-performing education systems elsewhere, the different elements in the system take responsibility for their own improvement. So, for example, I was recently in a meeting with delegations from Finland and other Scandinavian countries, and when we asked them about CPD, and discussed the new deal and other developments here, in Finland teachers take responsibility. They don’t have the formal structures for CPD, but they take responsibility for themselves, and I think to some extent, we are moving toward that kind of system.
[218] The difficulty for authorities is, as I think one of the members of the committee touched on earlier, the idea that—. Is it reasonable to expect an authority or a school to pay for the professional development of somebody who may not be with them in the weeks to come, and may be working elsewhere? There is a difficulty there. In terms of the wider performance management framework and the workload agreement, and so on, and the three one-hour performance management meetings that take place during the course of the year, supply teachers don’t easily fit in to that kind of framework at all, but in authorities and in schools, where there is regular contact, either at an individual teacher level, or where there is a preferred supplier, authorities and schools look for opportunities to provide CPD for the people that they work with. So, if there’s an INSET day and the school has regular supply staff, then they might invite them in to attend on that day. It’s a lost opportunity, maybe, for the supply cover in terms of their not earning income on that day, but at the same time, they are getting training from the school or from the authority that they might not otherwise get.
[219] David Rees: You’ve already talked about the preferred supplier and should a school or local authority invest in the development of somebody who may not be working with them tomorrow, for example. Do you therefore put into place, in any part of the framework for all these preferred suppliers, requirements that they actually do provide CPD for the staff that they employ?
[220] Dr Llewelyn: At a system level, and nationally, we would all agree that we would want to see CPD opportunities available for the large number of supply staff we’ve got in the system. The difficulty then comes in when you look at where the burden of the cost pressure is met.
[221] David Rees: But have you got the criteria in place that, when you set these frameworks up and you identify a preferred supplier, one of the criteria is that they have a proper CPD programme for their employees?
[222] Ms Seabourne: Again, I think that would be made up in some of the discussions that local authorities would have with preferred suppliers on a regular basis, but I can check what they’ve got actually written in their framework agreements, if that’s helpful for you.
[223] David Rees: We would like to know that, yes.
[224] Ms Seabourne: I think, as well, you’ve mentioned in some of the previous sessions that me and Chris were watching about the potential role of the education workforce council in looking at that kind of higher level CPD in training, and part of their role could be looking at CPD and training. I know that they’ve got that within their remit if they choose to take it on, and I think it would be interesting to have a look at perhaps how that could be developed in a slightly different way than we saw from the old GTCW.
[225] David Rees: The question that then comes is: who takes responsibility for that?
[226] Ms Seabourne: And the cost for that, yes.
[227] Ann Jones: Simon.
[228] Simon Thomas: Ie, jest ar y pwynt yna, a dweud y gwir. Ro’n i’n siomedig braidd, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud, gyda’ch tystiolaeth chi ar y mater yma, achos er eich bod chi’n disgrifio datblygu proffesiynol parhaus, nid oedd amcan yn y dystiolaeth o beth rydym ni newydd fod yn dechrau ei drafod, sef pwy sy’n gyfrifol am hynny. Felly, os gaf i bwyso arnoch chi am fwy o wybodaeth ar hynny. Rydych chi newydd sôn am y cyngor gweithlu addysg, ond pwy wir a ddylai fod yn arwain ar hwn, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun athrawon cyflenwi nawr, o safbwynt awdurdodau lleol? A ydy’n briodol yn ymarferol i ddibynnu ar yr ysgolion unigol? Y dystiolaeth hyd yma yw nad yw’n briodol. A ydym ni’n mynd lan at y lefel nesaf, sef, yr awdurdod, ynteu a ydym ni’n gweld y consortia yn delifro hwn ar gyfer athrawon yn gyffredinol ac athrawon cyflenwi yn eu plith, ynteu, a ydym ni’n edrych ar fodel cenedlaethol, sef cyngor y gweithlu addysg? Pwy, yn eich barn chi, ddylai arwain a sicrhau ansawdd yn y maes yma?		Simon Thomas: Yes, just on that point, to be honest. I was rather disappointed with your evidence on this issue, I have to say, because although you describe continuous professional development, there was no sense in the evidence about who should be responsible for that. So, if I could press you for more information on that. You’ve just talked about the education workforce council, but who should truly lead on this, particularly in the context of supply teachers from the point of view of local authorities? Is it appropriate and practical to depend on individual schools? The evidence to date is that it is not. Do we go up to the next level, which is the authority, or do we see the consortia delivering this for teachers in general and supply teachers amongst them, or are we looking at a national model, which would be the education workforce council? Who, in your view, should lead and who should do the quality assurance in this field?
11:30
[229] Dr Llewelyn: Mae e’n gwestiwn diddorol, yn amlwg. Roeddwn i’n sôn yn gynharach, bod y system addysg yn ei chyfanrwydd yn symud at y syniad yma o bawb yn y system yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb ar bob lefel, felly mae yna gyfrifoldeb ar unigolion, ar ysgolion, ar yr awdurdodau ac ar y cyrff cenedlaethol. Beth y byddwn i’n ei dybio—nid oes polisi pendant gyda ni ar hwn—ond beth y byddwn i’n ei dybio yw y byddem ni yn anelu at ryw sefyllfa lle mae yna ryw fath o fframwaith neu gonsensws cenedlaethol ynglŷn â’r cyfeiriad, ond, yn is lawr yn y system, bod aelodau yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb eu hunain am eu datblygiad proffesiynol.		Dr Llewelyn: It is an interesting question. I mentioned earlier that the education system as a whole is moving towards the idea that everyone within the system takes responsibility at all levels, so there is responsibility on individuals, and schools, and the authorities, as well as the national bodies. We don’t have a particular policy on this, but I would assume that we would aim towards a situation where there would be some sort of framework or national consensus regarding the direction, but then, lower down in the system, that members will take responsibility themselves for their own personal development.
[230] Simon Thomas: Ond, y drafferth gyda’r model yna yw nad yw athrawon cyflenwi wedi’u grymuso digon i arwain eu datblygiad proffesiynol. Nid ydyn nhw’n cael eu talu i fynd am ddatblygiad proffesiynol, nid ydyn nhw’n cael diwrnodau rhydd, neu ddiwrnodau wedi’u hadeiladu i mewn i’w hamserlen nhw, ac rydym ni’n bell i ffwrdd o system fel yna hefyd. Felly, beth y dylem ni ei wneud yn ystod y ddwy i bum mlynedd nesaf? Rydym ni’n sôn am basbort fel mynediad i ddatblygu proffesiynol i athrawon ar y cyfryw, ond ym mha ffordd allwn ni sicrhau bod un o bob 10 o’r dosbarthiadau yma sy’n cael eu cyflenwi gan athrawon cyflenwi hefyd gydag athrawon sydd wedi cymhwyso—nid jest cymhwyso, ond wedi’u hyfforddi—i safonau heddiw, nid 10 mlynedd yn ôl neu 15 mlynedd yn ôl?		Simon Thomas: But, the difficulty with that model is that supply teachers aren’t sufficiently empowered to lead on the CPD. They’re not paid for going for CPD and they’re not given either free days or days built into their timetable, for that, and we are a long way away from that kind of system too. So, what should we do in the interim, over the ensuing two to five years? We’re talking about a passport for access to CPD for teachers, but in what way can we ensure that one in every 10 of these classes that are covered by supply teachers should be covered by, not just qualified teachers, but those that are trained to the standards of today, not those of 10 years or 15 years ago?
[231] Dr Llewelyn: Rwy’n derbyn y pwynt, ac mae’n amlwg—beth rydym ni yn ymwybodol ohono, fel roeddwn i’n sôn yn gynharach—bod yna systemau eraill lle nad oes strwythurau neu raglenni ffurfiol, ac mae athrawon yn dal i gymryd cyfrifoldeb eu hunain. Efallai ei fod e’n rhywbeth y gallwn ni ei drafod ar lefel strategol ymhlith awdurdodau ac efallai rhwng awdurdodau—		Dr Llewelyn: I accept the point. What we are aware of, as I mentioned previously, was that there are other systems where there are no formal structures or programmes and that teachers still take responsibility themselves for their personal development. Perhaps it is something that we could discuss at a strategic level, amongst local authorities and perhaps between local authorities—
[232] Simon Thomas: Roeddech chi’n sôn am y Ffindir yn y fanna. Ni allwn ni newid i system fel yna nes ein bod ni’n cael datganoli tâl ac amodau gwaith, beth bynnag—. Mae hwnnw, chi’n gwybod, yn fodel mor wahanol—. Rwy’n derbyn ei fod e’n fodel lle mae’r hunan-arfarnu yn cael ei arwain gan y proffesiwn, ond mae hefyd yn golygu, er enghraifft, y byddai’n rhaid i chi gael rhywun fel cyngor y gweithlu addysg yn cynrychioli'r math yna o beth. Er bod yna bwt bach yn y Ddeddf, nid yw hynny’n ddigon, yn fy marn i, yn y lle cyntaf. So, rwy’n trio gweld beth y gallwn ni ei wneud. Mae pawb yn derbyn nad yw athrawon cyflenwi yn cael y datblygu proffesiynol y dylen nhw ei gael, os ydym ni’n sôn amdanyn nhw fel rhan o’r gweithlu addysg sydd gyda ni, felly rydym ni’n amddifadu adnodd pwysig o ddatblygiad proffesiynol rydym ni’n gweld ei fod yn bwysig i bawb. A oes yna unrhyw beth y gallwn ni ei wneud, yn y ddwy i bum mlynedd nesaf, i wella’r sefyllfa honno?		Simon Thomas: Well, you’re talking about Finland there. We can’t move to that kind of situation until we get the devolution of teachers’ terms and conditions. It’s such a totally different system—. I accept that we’re moving to a model where we should have self-evaluation led by the profession, but really, you would have to have the education workforce council representing and working for that. Although there’s a small section in the Act, it’s not adequate, in my view, to cover that. So, I’m trying to get at what it is that we could do. I think that everybody accepts that supply teachers don’t get the CPD that they should receive, if we’re going to talk about them as part of the education workforce that we have, so we’re depriving an important element of CPD, which we view as being very, very important to everyone. So, is there anything we can do, over the next two to five years, to improve that situation?
[233] Dr Llewelyn: Fel roeddech chi’n sôn, o ran efelychu’r hyn sy’n digwydd mewn mannau eraill, mae yna issue o ddiwylliant hefyd; mae’n cymryd amser i newid diwylliant. Yn y tymor byr, efallai, un o’r pethau—. Rydym ni wedi sôn bod yna fwy o ddata ar gael nag y byddai rhywun, efallai, yn ei ddisgwyl, a hefyd, bod yna fwy o waith—mwy o drafodaethau ac yn y blaen—yn cymryd lle ar lefel ymarferol, leol, ond beth nad yw’n digwydd yw bod y wybodaeth yna’n cael ei chrynhoi a’i dadansoddi yn gyson ac yn eang. Hyd y gwn i, beth nad ydym yn ei wneud hefyd, yw edrych ar enghreifftiau o arfer da, lle rydym ni’n gwybod bod rhai cynlluniau a rhaglenni ac yn y blaen, ymagweddau, yn gweithio yn effeithiol. Felly, yn bendant, byddwn i’n meddwl, yn y tymor byr, mae yna gyfle i ni, y tu mewn i’r system, edrych ar enghreifftiau o arfer da, a beth rydym ni’n teimlo sy’n gweithio’n effeithiol iawn. Rwy’n siŵr bod yr enghreifftiau hynny yn bodoli, jest o ran—		Dr Llewelyn: As you mentioned, in terms of emulating what’s happening in other countries, there’s an issue of culture as well, and it takes time to change culture. Maybe, in the short term, we’ve mentioned that there are more data available than one would expect, and that more discussions are held on a practical, local level, but what isn’t happening is that that information is collated and analysed widely and on a regular basis. As far as I am aware, what we don’t do is to look at examples of good practice, where we know that schemes and programmes and approaches work well and effectively. But, certainly, I would think, in the short term, that there is an opportunity for us, within the system, to look at examples of good practice and what we feel works effectively. I’m sure those examples do exist—
[234] Simon Thomas: A oes modd i chi, fel cymdeithas, hyrwyddo’r enghreifftiau yna o arfer da?		Simon Thomas: Is it possible for you, as an association, to promote those examples?
[235] Dr Llewelyn: Y gwir yw, mae’n rhywbeth y gallem ni fod yn ei wneud, ond—. Rydym ni’n gorff cymharol fach, so nid yw’r adnoddau gyda ni, yn bresennol, i wneud hynny. Un o’r pethau rydw i’n ymwybodol ohono yw, yn rhai o’r rhwydweithiau proffesiynol sy’n bodoli, er enghraifft, ymhlith cyfarwyddwyr ADEW a rhai o’u his-bwyllgorau nhw, mae’r trafodaethau yma yn cymryd lle ynglŷn ag arfer da a beth sy’n gweithio’n effeithiol, ac yn y blaen, ond nid yw’n rhywbeth sy’n digwydd yn rheolaidd ar lefel ffurfiol. Felly, eto, mae’n rhywbeth y gallem fod yn ei drafod ymhellach.		Dr Llewelyn: The truth is that it is something that we could do, but we’re a comparatively small organisation, so we don’t have the resources, at present, to do that. One of the things that I am aware of is that, in some of the professional networks that exist, for example, the ADEW directors and a number of their sub-committees, these discussions are taking place on good practice and what works effectively, and so on, but it’s not something that happens regularly on a formal level. Once again, it is something that we could discuss further.
[236] Ann Jones: Aled, you’ve got a small point and then we’ll go over to your questions as well.
[237] Aled Roberts: Os ydym ni’n derbyn bod y system yma ddim yn gweithio, am faint fydd y cytundeb fframwaith newydd yma yn clymu awdurdodau lleol? Os ydyn nhw wedi derbyn bod yna gytundeb o bum mlynedd, i ryw raddau, rydym ni’n styc efo hynny am bum mlynedd, onid ydym, ac rydym ni’n derbyn sefyllfa lle rydym ni wedi trosglwyddo cyfrifoldeb i asiantaeth breifat sy’n derbyn dim cyfrifoldeb am ansawdd datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon?		Aled Roberts: If we accept that this system doesn’t work, for how long will the new framework agreement bind local authorities? If they have accepted that there is a five-year agreement, then, to an extent, we’re stuck with that for five years, aren’t we, and we are accepting a situation where we have transferred the responsibility to a private agency, which accepts no responsibility for the quality of the professional development of teachers?
[238] Dr Llewelyn: Nid oeddwn i’n ystyried ein bod ni wedi cytuno bod y gyfundrefn bresennol yn methu. Efallai ein bod ni’n trafod bod yna—		Dr Llewelyn: I didn’t consider that we had agreed that the current system was failing. Perhaps what we are discussing is that there is—
[239] Aled Roberts: Wel, nid oes yna fesur ynglŷn ag effaith darpariaeth athrawon cyflenwi, o’r lle rydw i’n eistedd, beth bynnag, ar gyrhaeddiad plant.		Aled Roberts: Well, there is no measure regarding the impact that supply teacher provision has, from where I’m sitting, anyway, on the attainment of children.
[240] Mr Llewelyn: Ie. Ocê.		Mr Llewelyn: Yes. Okay.
[241] Aled Roberts: Nid oes yna ddim dealltwriaeth. Felly, rydym ni’n clymu ein hunain yn gyfreithiol i gytundeb lle hwyrach nad yw’r cytundeb yma yn gweithio.		Aled Roberts: There is no understanding. Therefore, we are binding ourselves legally to an agreement but perhaps the agreement doesn’t work.
[242] Dr Llewelyn: Efallai mai’r hyn y byddwn i’n ei awgrymu yw ein bod ni’n ymwybodol o ran tystiolaeth ac adroddiadau gan Estyn ac eraill bod yna wendidau yn y system. Fel roeddwn i’n sôn, mae trafodaethau wedi bod yn cael eu cynnal ers cyhoeddi rhai o’r adroddiadau yma. Rydym ni yn ymwybodol bod yna enghreifftiau o arfer da a bod lot o ddata a gwybodaeth yn cael eu casglu ond nid ydym ni’n dadansoddi hynny yn gyson ar hyn o bryd. Felly, byddwn i’n awgrymu bod yna lot o elfennau y gallem ni edrych arnyn nhw yn y lle cyntaf i geisio gwella’r sefyllfa rydym ni ynddi.		Dr Llewelyn: Perhaps what I would suggest is that we are aware from evidence and reports by Estyn and others that there are weaknesses in the system. As I mentioned, discussions have been ongoing since the publication of some of these reports. We are aware that there are examples of good practice and that a lot of data and information are being collected but we don’t analysis them consistently at the moment. Therefore, I would suggest that there are many elements that we could look at in the first instance to try to improve the situation we’re in.
[243] Aled Roberts: Ond o ba ddyddiad y mae’r cytundeb newydd yma yn weithredol?		Aled Roberts: But from what date is this new agreement in force?
[244] Dr Llewelyn: Nid wy’n siŵr.		Dr Llewelyn: I’m not sure.
[245] Ms Seabourne: I’m not sure. I’ll have to check. I think the framework agreement is up and running from September.
[246] Aled Roberts: September this year.
[247] Ms Seabourne: I’m not sure, to be honest with you, but I will check.
[248] Aled Roberts: Okay. Could you check for how long, as well?
[249] Ms Seabourne: Yes.
[250] Aled Roberts: Because if we’re actually committed to that framework agreement, some of these discussions might be a bit superfluous anyway.
[251] Ms Seabourne: My understanding is, if it’s a national framework agreement, then local authorities that already have arrangements may not necessarily be—. You know, it’s a framework agreement that local authorities could buy in to if they wanted to as opposed to something that they would have to buy in to, but I can check.
[252] Aled Roberts: We were informed by the Wales Audit Office that each and every local authority would be within the framework agreement from April this year.
[253] Ms Seabourne: Okay. I’ll check on that.
[254] Ann Jones: Thank you. Do you want to go on to your use of supply teachers question?
[255] Aled Roberts: A gaf i jest ofyn a ydych chi’n ymwybodol o unrhyw ganllawiau gan gynghorau lleol ynglŷn â’r disgwyliadau ar ysgolion unigol o’r wybodaeth sy’n cael ei pharatoi pan fydd athrawon cyflenwi yn cyrraedd unrhyw ysgol?		Aled Roberts: May I just ask whether you’re aware of any guidelines within local authorities regarding the expectations on individual schools as regards the information that should be provided for supply teachers when they arrive at a given school?
[256] Ms Seabourne: I’ve got an example here, actually, of a model policy that a local authority provides to its schools, which would include things like best practice, which is providing decent information to a supply teacher when they enter the school. I think, again, that was something that was highlighted in the Wales Audit Office and Estyn reports. A number of local authorities came back to me after that to say that that would be the kind of information they would provide. I only received this this morning, but I’m happy to circulate to the committee some of the model policies that local authorities use. This is actually from Wrexham.
[257] Ann Jones: It’s all right. He’s still going to ask you the awkward questions, so you’re not going to get away with it. [Laughter.]
[258] Ms Seabourne: Yes, I’m just going to wave it around a little bit, then.
[259] Simon Thomas: You’re no longer responsible now, Aled. [Laughter.]
[260] Aled Roberts: I wrote it before I left. No. [Laughter.]
[261] Ms Seabourne: Take full responsibility.
[262] Aled Roberts: Rwyf eisiau gofyn hefyd, mae yna gryn dipyn o wahaniaeth rhwng y ffordd mae’r gwahanol gonsortia yn ymddwyn o ran adnoddau dynol. Mae yna dystiolaeth bod rhai ohonyn nhw yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb dros adnoddau dynol, ac mae enghreifftiau eraill lle, hyd yn oed o dan y model cenedlaethol, mae’r cyfrifoldebau yna yn dal yn eistedd efo’r cynghorau. A oes gennych chi unrhyw fath o drosolwg ynglŷn ag a yw pawb yn symud tuag at yr un model?		Aled Roberts: I also just wanted to ask, there is a great deal of difference between the ways in which the various consortia act in relation to human resources. There is evidence that some of them take responsibility for human resources, and there are other examples where, even under the national model, those responsibilities still sit with the councils. Do you have any type of overview as to whether everyone is moving towards the same model?
[263] Dr Llewelyn: Ydyn. O ran y model cenedlaethol, mae’r ddogfen yn cyfeirio at sefyllfa lle mae’r consortia yn fwy cyson yn fewnol, ynglŷn â sut y maen nhw’n delio ag adnoddau dynol, a bod darpariaeth gyson yn datblygu ac yn parhau y tu fewn i’r consortia ar draws yr aelodaeth, er nad yw’r model cenedlaethol na’r ddogfen yn cyfeirio at ba fath o fodel. Hynny yw, nid yw’n gorfodi unrhyw un o’r pedwar consortiwm i ddatblygu yr union un gwasanaeth, ond bod yr un elfennau’n bodoli a’u bod nhw’n gyson. Yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ers cytuno’r model cenedlaethol, mae yna gryn dipyn o waith wedi cymryd lle, ac mae yna ddogfen ar adnoddau dynol wedi ei hychwanegu i’r model cenedlaethol a’r ddogfen wreiddiol. So, yn bendant, mae yna ymwybyddiaeth ynglŷn â’r pwysigrwydd o fod yn fwy cyson ynglŷn â’r ddarpariaeth, ond nid yw e’n dilyn, wrth reswm, fod pob consortiwm yn rhedeg gwasanaeth yn ganolog, ond yn hytrach fod yr un lefel o wasanaeth ar gael i bob ysgol.		Dr Llewelyn: Yes. As regards the national model, the document refers to a situation where the consortia are more consistent internally in their approach to human resources, and that consistent provision is developing and is continuing within the consortia across the whole membership, although the national model or the document doesn’t refer to exactly what kind of a model. That is, it doesn’t impose or it require any one of the four consortia to develop the exact same service, as long as the same elements exist and that they are consistent. During the past year since agreeing on the national model, a lot of work has been done, and a document on human resources has been added to the national model and the original document. So, there is definitely an awareness of the importance of being more consistent about the provision, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that every consortium runs a central service, rather that the same level of service should be available to each school.
[264] Aled Roberts: Jest er mwyn inni ddeall hefyd, a ydy’r model cenedlaethol yn dweud yn union pa fath o wybodaeth y mae’r cynghorau unigol i’w darparu? A ydy o’n mynd i fanylder felly, neu, wrth inni sôn eich bod chi’n dweud bod yna arfer da mewn rhai llefydd, a ydy’r model cenedlaethol yma yn pigo ar yr arfer da?		Aled Roberts: Just in order for us to understand also, does the national model say exactly what type of information the individual councils should provide? Does it go into that level of detail? You mentioned there was good practice in some areas. Does this national model pick up on those good practices?
[265] Dr Llewelyn: Na, nid yw’r model cenedlaethol yn gwneud hynny. Mae’r adroddiad sydd wedi ei ychwanegu yn mynd i fwy o fanylder, ac fe allen ni, yn gymharol hawdd, rannu y ddogfen ddiweddaraf gydag aelodau’r pwyllgor, ond nid wy’n cofio ei fod yn mynd i’r math o fanylder rŷch chi’n sôn amdano.		Dr Llewelyn: No, the national model doesn’t do that. The report that has been appended does go into greater detail, and we could relatively easily share the latest document with the committee members, but I don’t remember it going into the kind of detail that you’re talking about.
[266] Aled Roberts: Y cwestiwn olaf. A ydy’ch gwybodaeth chi o’ch aelodau yn cadarnhau y dystiolaeth rŷm ni wedi ei derbyn, sef bod defnydd o athrawon cyflenwi yn broblem o ran rhai meysydd penodol, a bod yna broblem hefyd o fewn y gyfundrefn cyfrwng Cymraeg, a hefyd mewn ardaloedd gwledig?		Aled Roberts: The last question. Does your knowledge about your members confirm the evidence that we’ve received, namely that the use of supply teachers is a problem in some certain subjects, and that there is a problem in the Welsh-medium sector, and also in rural areas?
[267] Dr Llewelyn: Ydy, yn union—fwy neu lai, fel rŷch chi wedi ei grynhoi. Wrth i rywun symud i’r gorllewin, mae e’n fwy o broblem, ac mewn ardaloedd gwledig, cefn gwlad, ac mewn darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg, yn enwedig pan fo’n dod i TGAU a lefel A.		Dr Llewelyn: Yes, it does—more or less exactly as you’ve summarised it. As one moves west, it becomes more of a problem, and likewise in rural areas, and as regards Welsh-medium provision, particularly when it comes to GCSEs and A-level.
[268] Suzy Davies: This is related to the use of supply teachers. In your evidence, you’ve reminded us that, since the introduction of the teachers’ workforce agreements, teachers within a school need only provide cover where the absence is unforeseen: the rarely cover agreement. Yet, last week, we had evidence from witnesses that said that it’s commonplace—virtually routine, it seems to me—that, where there’s an absence in key stage 4 lessons, the school will take teachers out of the key stage 3 lessons to teach the key stage 4 lessons, and the supply teachers then go into key stage 3. Is that something that you recognise? If so, has that come up?
[269] Ms Seabourne: It’s not something that’s been mentioned to me. I don’t know whether that’s anecdotal evidence. Is that anecdotal evidence?
[270] Suzy Davies: It was given to us as evidence.
[271] Ms Seabourne: I’m not aware of that happening, but—
[272] Suzy Davies: That would come up if data were kept, let’s put it that way. Thank you. That’s lovely, thanks.
[273] Ann Jones: Supply agencies. Bethan.
[274] Bethan Jenkins: Ie, jest ynglŷn ag i ba raddau rŷch chi fel y WLGA yn monitro sut mae ysgolion yn defnyddio athrawon cyflenwi o asiantaethau penodol, oherwydd rŷm ni’n deall gan Estyn fod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn dweud nad ydyn nhw eisiau defnyddio asiantaethau, tra bod awdurdodau lleol eraill yn eu defnyddio nhw lot fawr. Felly, jest eich barn chi ar hynny.		Bethan Jenkins: Yes, just to ask to what extent you as the WLGA monitor schools’ use of supply teachers from specific agencies, because we understand from Estyn that some local authorities say that they don’t want to use agencies, while other local authorities use them a great deal. So, just your view on that, please.
[275] Ms Seabourne: Certainly, as the WLGA, we wouldn’t hold that kind of information, although we have had discussions with local authorities ahead of this session. I think, in terms of local authorities using different agencies and having a different approach, I think that’s evident that we’ve got some local authorities that might use multiple agencies and other local authorities that would just use, as I’ve mentioned before, a preferred provider.
11:45
[276] So, there is a variation in how local authorities approach supply work agencies, but, as Chris has mentioned, in terms of access to certain specialisms, for example, it might actually be advantageous for an authority to do something differently to another. So, for example, in a more rural area, you may need to use more than one agency to, perhaps, cover different types of teaching.
[277] Bethan Jenkins: Beth am y sefyllfa gydag adborth? Rŷm ni wedi clywed, gan amlaf, nad oes dim adborth o gwbl yn cael ei roi i’r athrawon cyflenwi asiantaeth. Hefyd, mewn lot o ysgolion, yr ysgrifenyddes neu’r rheolwr busnes sy’n penodi’r athro cyflenwi ar sail cost, yn hytrach nag ar sail beth mae’r athro neu’r athrawes hynny yn gallu ei wneud. A ydych chi’n ffeindio hynny hefyd?		Bethan Jenkins: What about the situation regarding feedback? We’ve heard that, more often than not, no feedback at all is provided to agency supply teachers. Also, in many schools, it is the secretary or the business manager who appoints the supply teacher based on cost, rather than on what that teacher can actually do. Do you find that, too?
[278] Ms Seabourne: I certainly haven’t. In gathering information for this session—Chris might have another view—I haven’t found that at all. Actually, I found that those local authorities that I’ve spoken to are the ones that, as I’ve mentioned before, sit down with the agencies and they provide feedback. They talk to the schools and ask whether or not there were any particular concerns with supply teachers. So, again, that’s not my experience. It may well be out there, but, from what I’ve heard from doing this evidence, the case is that they are actually providing feedback on supply teachers.
[279] Dr Llewelyn: A gaf i jest ategu at hynny? Un o’r pethau, efallai, rŷch chi’n tynnu sylw ato yw fel mae’r sefyllfa, y darlun, yn amrywio o ysgol i ysgol ac efallai o awdurdod i awdurdod. Yr adborth rŷm ni’n ei gael yw bod yna drafodaethau rhwng yr awdurdodau a’r asiantaethau, a bod yna systemau o roi adborth ac i fwydo nôl. Hefyd, un o’r pethau sydd yn digwydd nawr—er, efallai, ar lefel anffurfiol—yw bod cyfarwyddwyr yn trafod ymhlith ei gilydd y gwahanol asiantaethau y maen nhw’n eu defnyddio, a natur ac ansawdd y ddarpariaeth a’r gwasanaeth. Felly, mae e yn bendant yn digwydd ar lefel anffurfiol, ond efallai nad yw’n rhywbeth sy’n digwydd yn gyson. Na—nid ei fod e ddim yn digwydd yn gyson, ond nid yw’n digwydd ar lefel ffurfiol, efallai.		Dr Llewelyn: May I just add to that? One of the things, perhaps, that you’re drawing attention to is the way in which the situation, or the picture, varies from school to school and perhaps from authority to authority. The feedback that we get is that there are discussions between the authorities and the agencies, and that there are systems for providing feedback and reporting back. Also, one of the things that’s happening now—albeit on an informal level—is that directors are discussing amongst themselves the various agencies they use, and the nature and quality of the provision and service. So, it’s definitely happening on an informal level, but perhaps it’s not happening regularly. No—it’s not that it’s not happening regularly, but it’s not happening on a formal level, perhaps.
[280] Bethan Jenkins: Mae fy nghwestiwn arall jest yn cyffwrdd â beth oedd Simon wedi’i ddweud yn gynharach, o ran chi fel endid yn cychwyn gwaith ar hyn. A oes gennych chi safbwynt ynglŷn â sut i reoleiddio’r sector? Er enghraifft, a oes syniad gennych chi ynglŷn â sut y gallwn ni gael mwy o strwythur systematig yn y system, o ran bod athrawon cyflenwi yn cael yr un math o hawliau pensiwn a’r un math o hawliau i CPD ac yn y blaen, neu a ydy hynny yn rhywbeth nad ydych chi wedi meddwl amdano hyd yn hyn?		Bethan Jenkins: My other question just touches on what Simon mentioned previously, in terms of you as an entity starting work on this. Do you have a view as to how to regulate the sector? For example, do you have any idea regarding how we could get more of a systematic structure in the system, so that supply teachers have the same pension rights, and they have the same rights to CPD and so on, or is that something that you haven’t given much thought to thus far?
[281] Dr Llewelyn: Nid oes dim polisi pendant gyda ni, ond mae elfennau o beth roeddech chi’n sôn amdano yn codi mewn rhai o’n trafodaethau ni, ac fe fyddem ni’n agored i roi mewnbwn, neu i drafod ymhellach, efallai, cyhyd â bod hynny’n addas.		Dr Llewelyn: We don’t have a specific policy, but elements of what you’ve just raised do arise in some of our discussions, and we would be open to have further input, or to have further discussions, perhaps, provided that were appropriate.
[282] Bethan Jenkins: Jest i orffen, beth yw’ch trafodaethau chi â’r consortia ynglŷn ag a oes unrhyw beth yn digwydd o ran disgyblaeth? Roeddem yn clywed gan yr undebau a chan Estyn am y ffaith eu bod nhw’n mynd yn syth at y GTCW os oes problem, ac nad yw hynny’n deg ar yr athro o dan sylw, achos efallai nad oes dim byd wedi digwydd mewn gwirionedd, o ran yr athro hwnnw. Roedd yr undebau’n dweud mai rôl i’r consortia fyddai hynny, fel rhyw fath o ychwanegiad i’r system sydd ddim yna ar hyn o bryd. A oes gyda chi farn ar hynny?		Bethan Jenkins: Just to finish, what discussions have you had with the consortia regarding whether anything is happening with regard to discipline? We’ve heard from the unions and from Estyn about the fact that they go directly to the GTCW if there’s a problem, and that that isn’t fair on the teacher in question, because perhaps nothing has happened in reality, in terms of that teacher. The unions were saying that that would be a role for the consortia, as some kind of addition to the system that isn’t there at the moment. Do you have a view on that?
[283] Dr Llewelyn: Na. Eto, nid yw’n rhywbeth rŷm ni wedi’i drafod. Nid wyf cweit yn deall beth fyddai rôl y consortiwm, o ran nid y nhw fyddai’r cyflogwr. Ond, eto, nid yw’n drafodaeth rŷm ni wedi’i chael.		Dr Llewelyn: No. Again, it’s not something that we’ve discussed. I don’t quite understand what the role of the consortium would be, in that they wouldn’t be the employer. But, again, that’s not a discussion we’ve had.
[284] Bethan Jenkins: Wel, rwy’n credu, ar hyn o bryd mae’n mynd yn syth at y cyngor, yn hytrach na’n aros gyda’r ysgolion. Os yr awdurdod sydd wedi penodi’r athro neu’r athrawes, bydden nhw’n cael trafodaeth cyn iddo fe fynd i’r lefel cenedlaethol. Felly, y cynnig oedd bod y consortia yn cael rhyw fath o rôl cyn iddo fe—beth yw’r gair?—‘escalate-o’.		Bethan Jenkins: Well, I think, at present it goes directly to the council, rather than staying with the schools. If it’s the authority that appointed the teacher, they would have a discussion before it went to the national level. So, the proposal was that the consortia should have some sort of role before it gets—what’s the word?—escalated?
[285] Ms Seabourne: I think the issue with that would be, again, that they’re not an employer body. I’m not fully aware of the legal implications of that and whether they would have a role, but you could envisage, perhaps, an informal role in that. I think Estyn gave evidence on this and said that, actually, the policy is the policy, and there need to be checks and balances within the system, certainly if you’re looking at something like a safeguarding issue, for example, you’d want to make sure that the policy was really rigorous.
[286] Keith Davies: Isn’t it true that, although the teachers appoint, the members of staff are still the responsibility of the authority? The authority are still the employers.
[287] Dr Llewelyn: A fyddai’n bosibl i ni ddod yn ôl atoch jest i ni gael gweld a oes trafodaethau wedi cymryd lle?		Dr Llewelyn: Would it be possible for us to come back to you, for us to see what discussions have taken place?
[288] Ann Jones: Okay. I think that’s all the questions. You know because you’ve been in before, but we’ll send you a copy of the transcript to check for accuracy. There are a number of notes that you’ve offered to provide us and if you could still find whatever information you can find on the four additional points that the committee requested, what the clerks will do is send you a list of what you’ve offered to provide and what else as well. So, thanks very much for that.
[289] That is the end of the business of the committee. Our next meeting is next Thursday, when we will be taking further evidence on this inquiry.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 11:51. The meeting ended at 11:51.